04-02-2004 02:24									#1
	Pre-Poll Discussion: Holding the Save Until We Get Peace Inflate your Upload Space

Alright, it's time to end this once and for all. If Lucky doesn't comply to mongoose's latest ruling, this could keep going on and on and on and on...

Therefore, I believe we must take firm and decisive action and finish this. I want us to hold the save until GCA (or mongoose playing their turn, if necessary) offers us peace accepted.

I will set up a poll on this topic in 2 days.

	04-02-2004 03:49									#2
	Remove this text

You have my support. I'm already letting Mongoose201 know in another e-mail what my stance on this is... Lucky should sign peace THIS TURN. He's already received several turns of Apolyton War Weariness he should not have gotten, so he can even claim that as a victory of sorts.

This ends now.

If Lucky then wants to fight on with us, he's of course free to do so with hostile actions or redeclaration of war if he wants.

	04-02-2004 04:45									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes

	04-02-2004 04:53									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes hold it. If we don't make a stand on the issue sooner or later than Lucky is going to find a way to keep us in WW forever if he can. We need to finally make a strong stand that we're not going to take his BS anymore and we have the game moderator back us up on it.

	04-02-2004 05:00									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thank God! I've asked for this for eons now.

	04-02-2004 07:25									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually...

When we have a situation where we have fulfilled the conditions for Mongoose's rulings to apply, we should send peace accepted to GCA during our turn...

then when we receive the turn once again with no peace accepted by GCA, we simply state that the save we have received is unplayable because it is invalid and that we need a save that conforms with the rulings of the game's admin.

That means that GCA would have to redo their turn, and so would CGN. We would then receive a save with peace accepted, or not, and we could then repeat the process or continue on with the game.

Now, I have to say that now is the wrong time to do this. GCA has units in our territory. Unless Mongoose agrees that their use of these units is still phoney war. If Mongoose agrees, then proceed with denial of the saves on the basis of them being invalid.

Don't count on using this more than once during the whole game, and be very careful Mongoose is not pushed into skipping our turn.

	04-02-2004 07:39									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

I think until that spear is removed, any holding of the save on these grounds is illegitimate. Furthermore, as there has been a battle less than five turns ago in the sea, the time period has been reset. The time to hold the save was before we assaulted the galley, not now.


edit: no, I am not just mimicking nye (more or less), these were my own thoughts.

	04-02-2004 07:59									#8
	Tired of ads?

We also endured a time span of 13 turns where there was no "threat" posed to either team and no peace was made.

	04-02-2004 08:06									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Trip We also endured a time span of 13 turns where there was no "threat" posed to either team and no peace was made.

irrelevant

the rule is no battles within 5 turns. This has not been satisfied. The fact that it could have been at one point in time, is moot.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obstinate, but we are currently engaged in a guerilla war (one spear :lol and I don't feel its something that should be rightfully resolved via external influence.

	04-02-2004 08:12									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The issue here is war weariness.

GCA has every right to wage a "guerilla war" with a Spear here and a Galley there.

What they have no right is to exploit the game for the purpose of hurting us via war weariness 20 turns after the REAL war has ended.

	04-02-2004 08:32									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

We're going to lose on this one due to the recent combat with GCA's galley and our ensuing combat with their spear.

We picked the wrong time to hold firm as we don't have much of a leg to stand on.

I'm all in favor of forcing peace, but I don't think we'll win this argument right now. I don't mind us TRYING to argue it, but I do not think we should stubbornly refuse to play the save until our demands are met. We have to respect the rules of the game too, which include playing the save within 24 hours.

--Togas

	04-02-2004 08:39									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Trip The issue here is war weariness. GCA has every right to wage a "guerilla war" with a Spear here and a Galley there. What they have no right is to exploit the game for the purpose of hurting us via war weariness 20 turns after the REAL war has ended.

I see your point of view, certainly, I don't like to be the recipient of such tactics either. However, the war was never officially ended, "real" or otherwise. Sure Mongoose issued a "ruling" but it never had any force and was ignored. I think that legally we would have been in a much greater position had the galley not been attacked, that action nullified any prior ruling by the goose, in my opinion. And frankly, if he does rule in our favor, I will view it as a farce, as GCA does have the current ability to wage war on us, albeit for a short time. What do you want Goose to do, force peace, then GCA will redeclare it next turn? Or have Goose play the turn and disband the spear/galley? Otherwise, we will have to redeclare war to remove the spear. Is that the right thing to do? I don't think so. The time to hold the save was prior to attacking the galley (as well as the CFC attack) not now.

Frankly perhaps this is all a philisophical difference between us. I dislike the idea of a moderator, outside the game, influencing events in game. I think they should only be used to watch for cheating, (reloading) and for keeping the game moving. I'm not in favor of changing the rules of the game mid-way through, which is what this is doing. We didn't contemplate this course of events, well that was unfortunate.

	04-02-2004 08:47									#13
	Tired of ads?

I say why don't we 1) kill their spear 2) kill their galley, THEN hold on to that save.

Lucky will ***** that 5 turns have not passed (or probably find some other excuse). We counter by saying that when the original 5 turns had expired combat did not occur until AFTER so he is in breach of his own conditions.

Plus, I HATE seeing that stupid galley and that stupid spear in our territory. If we make peace we will always have them like an obnoxious mosquito unable to kill it.

	04-02-2004 08:48									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

btw, this is the last mail mongoose sent me today:

quote: Just got this from lucky: Yes, we remember those 5 turns. Only thing is that in the last turn, Apolyton has attacked us once again (and lost ). So, according to my understanding, the turn limit "counter" starts anew. But as you can see from these recent events, we have attacked Apolyton something like 5-6 turns ago and they attacked us last turn, as well as skirmishes with CFC as well, 5 turns is really not enough. In any case, we will accept a peace offer from Apolyton IF the last fighting was more than 5 turns ago. Same for CFC. But understand that we will not offer it ourselves. Concerning CFC, they have not yet even tried to ask for peace so I donīt think they are so inclined on it like Poly is. And just to restate, we are staying formally at war with both countries. Any in-game action will just be taken to circumvent any supposedly "exploits". You can forward this reply to both teams in question. Lucky Don Gibson wrote: Hi Lucky, Sorry for the length of time it took for a reply, but RL has been hammering my time mercilessly The only legth of time that I can find in the chat logs is 5 turns. I'm sure we are well past that now. So, if you would be so kind to offer peace on this turn, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your understanding, now I have to get back to the grind mongoose201 >From: Lucky >To: Don Gibson >Subject: Re: Ruling- ISDG >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:01:38 +0100 >

	04-02-2004 09:00									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

There may be a time and place to put our foot down, but this is not it IMO. We should have done it earlier, before we started having battles with them again. Now we just need to kill that galley. (Once that's done, the spear should be trapable, assuming we take even that long to kill it.)

	04-02-2004 11:10									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Well, With CFC being in Republic, I imagine that they are also getting hit with the WW. It would seen, that it;s been more than 5 turns from when they tried to sink that galley thenselves. So, IF CFC doesn't have any more gallies on the way, we should get them to send Peace (accepted) to GCA and see what happens. If Lucky wants to play this little game, lets just play it better.

And as for the Galley/spear, that spear will jump back on the galley and the galley will scoot somewhere else, likely the CFC side of the lake, to repeat the process.

This is what I'm thinking they are trying to do
1) have that Spear get attacked or attack with it
1a) hope to generate a GL, if they get a GL, go to step 2.
1b) If no GL, move spearman back onto boat and heal on the water. Move somewhere else and repeat.
2) unload the settler than they have in the boat
2a) build a city
3) move galley. spear and GL into city and abandon the city to move them back to their new home.

E_T

	04-02-2004 13:42									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Are troops teleported when a city is abandoned? If not, they can gift it to GWT (even worse).

NYE is right - his proposed course of action is the right one. Better inform CGN that there is a chance that they might have to replay their turn.

	04-02-2004 21:44									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen btw, this is the last mail mongoose sent me today:

Silly Mexican, I already posted that in the other thread.

	06-02-2004 03:04									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I say why don't we 1) kill their spear 2) kill their galley, THEN hold on to that save. Lucky will ***** that 5 turns have not passed (or probably find some other excuse). We counter by saying that when the original 5 turns had expired combat did not occur until AFTER so he is in breach of his own conditions. Plus, I HATE seeing that stupid galley and that stupid spear in our territory. If we make peace we will always have them like an obnoxious mosquito unable to kill it.

quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, With CFC being in Republic, I imagine that they are also getting hit with the WW. It would seen, that it;s been more than 5 turns from when they tried to sink that galley thenselves. So, IF CFC doesn't have any more gallies on the way, we should get them to send Peace (accepted) to GCA and see what happens. If Lucky wants to play this little game, lets just play it better. E_T

I agree with both of these plans. We encourage CFC to try to make peace first. If GCA refuses, then we know they will continue to play outside of the rules and we can then hold the save (and can likely get CFC to agree to not play a turn either, if our turn is skipped). If they accept peace with CFC, then we send in the troops to knock out their units, wait our five turns, then demand peace. If they still refuse, then mongoose will have even more reason to force them into peace. If he doesn't, then we sit on the save.

	06-02-2004 05:39									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by AdmiralACF I agree with both of these plans. We encourage CFC to try to make peace first. If GCA refuses, then we know they will continue to play outside of the rules and we can then hold the save (and can likely get CFC to agree to not play a turn either, if our turn is skipped). If they accept peace with CFC, then we send in the troops to knock out their units, wait our five turns, then demand peace. If they still refuse, then mongoose will have even more reason to force them into peace. If he doesn't, then we sit on the save.

I'm cool with dat!

	06-02-2004 09:22									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Guys, as long as this "5 turns of peace" mantra keeps getting said and set in stone, we're going to have to acknowledge it. We're going to have to live with it. And we're going to have to wait 5 turns before we make demands for peace.

If we make demands now and Lucky sides with the "law" that it hasn't been 5 turns yet, all we're going to do is grind this game to a halt because Mongoose isn't going to contradict himself and Lucky isn't going to do the right thing.

Furthermore, if we demand peace now and somehow get it, Lucky is just going to keep pestering us with that damned boat and spearman, causing us to repeat these headaches over and over and over again.

Let's just kill his units, wait 5 turns, and be done with him for good. I don't like the wait anymore than any of you but it's what we're going to have to do to avoid a game strike or a repeat of this nonsense in the near future.

--Togas

	06-02-2004 18:21									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm posting in the orders to Rush the Galley in Lakeveiw for 64 Gold, this turn. If GWT tells GCA that our galleys are on the way, the GCA galley will head south and we can get them within a vise.

Also, in the next 5 turns (before our Galleys can get to their galley), if GCA moves to the other side of the lake, We need to make sure that CFC has some look outs placed, so that we can get Positional Intelligence from them, as we get closer. It would be great if we are able to catch them at the end of a move and they can't Fortify.

ALSO, IF THEY ARE RELOADING and they are moving towards one of our galleys and just see it on the horizan and instead, reload and fortify, this might give us the proof we need for this.

So, Rush building that galley and Coordination with CFC. Let;s let CFC know where they are now and what they have been doing, so that we can further show them that we are an open partner with them (and to continue to trust us).

MoI E_T