04-02-2004 07:55									#1
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Does the computer have any sense of loyalty at all??

I just watched as the Scandinavia's sunk my trieme while we just started a MMP. They used a privateer but I'm 100% sure it was them. The evidence is pretty much stacked up against them. For example the Privateer came out of their city and attacked and sunk me. It doesn't matter however as well I don't need a single trieme running around when I'm about to discover Combustion. Oh well. Makes you wonder if the AI has any sense of loyalty at all. I'd never dream of attacking a MMP partner even with a Privateer. Damn treacherous AI.

This happen alot? Does the AI have any sense of loyalty?

	04-02-2004 09:06									#2
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Yes and no. The AI thinks that using hidden nationality units menas it is free to ignore relationships. You are not suppose to know it is them.

	04-02-2004 09:09									#3
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You'd think they would at least try to make it a little less obvious. At least now I know who is annoying my fleets elsewhere in the world.

	04-02-2004 13:33									#4
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What happens when you do the reverse to the AI? Do they get angry?

	04-02-2004 14:08									#5
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Haven't tried.

Though wouldn't be much of a test at the moment. Everyone is getting mighty pissed off at me. Half the time they are wanting MMP's and the other half they time they are waiting to stab me in the back. Thankfully I'm rather large . When I get round to it I'm gonna go clearing the water with Privateers, though time is running short on their usefulness.

	04-02-2004 14:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley What happens when you do the reverse to the AI? Do they get angry?

I believe I read in the AI-relationship thread (the one that describes the whys and wherefores of when an AI is gracious, polite, cautious, annoyed or furious) that if you sink an AI's ship with a privateer that's a -1 to your relationship with them.

So, I guess they're supposed to know, but you're not?

[ok]

	04-02-2004 17:44									#7
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In PTW it would affect their attitude vs you, but it wouldn't be a just reason to declare war. Almost the same as you describe when you got attacked

	04-02-2004 18:24									#8
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Just based on observation, rather than any testing, the more aggressive an AI civ the more likely they seem to be to turn on you, use privateers or whatever. The less aggressive civs tend to hang in on alliances until it really hurts them.

I may be wrong but I do think AI aggressiveness influences this behaviour.

	04-02-2004 19:06									#9
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There may be a random element here as well, but I imagine that a peaceful civ will not go to war until their attitude is at least -15, whereas an aggressive civ will attack you from -5. (These numbers are just guesswork btw)

	05-02-2004 02:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by bongo There may be a random element here as well, but I imagine that a peaceful civ will not go to war until their attitude is at least -15, whereas an aggressive civ will attack you from -5. (These numbers are just guesswork btw)

I don't buy that, if I understand what you're saying. The most common occurrence in my gameplay is for the AIs to be polite, right up to the time they march (or land) their troops into my territory.

Then they attack. Then they get mad at me.

Perceived weakness is critical. Attitude, not so much.

[ok]

	05-02-2004 02:29									#11
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I agree that percieved strength is most likely a bigger factor but that does not exclude the random element+attitude

	05-02-2004 03:19									#12
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Here’s another loyalty oddity for you, or maybe just a bug.

I’m playing a scenario I put together where several civs start with Locked Alliances, which act more or less like MPPs for life. One of the civs I am locked into an alliance with, the Babs (polite), threatened me for a tech. Pretty amusing behavior considering in Locked Alliances you can not actually attack another civ’s unit within the alliance (I tried just to see what happens; I get a message telling me I am not allowed to attack an allied unit) and I’m pretty sure there’s no way to break the locked alliance. So anecdotally speaking, there is probably some sort of random factor built in.

	05-02-2004 11:45									#13
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quote: Then they attack. Then they get mad at me.

Yeah I find it's the polite ones you have to watch. The ones at annoyed only threaten every now and again and are just general annoyances with trading and the such. The polite ones are all nice and polite till they are marching over your territory, then their attitudes crumble.

	06-02-2004 19:52									#14
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I've had that happen to me.

U know whats funny?

Zulus or Germany are always the most aggressive in my games, but sometimes they'd offer RoP or MPP while the peaceful civ's demand tech or big money for RoP or MPP.

Makes you think, huh?

	06-02-2004 22:06									#15
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Know what the AI tells you when they don't want an ROP with you, 'I will only turn my back at you when I want a knife there'

	06-02-2004 22:40									#16
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Bismark is normally an unfriendly fellow.

	07-02-2004 02:01									#17
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Maybe the AI is smarter than we give it credit for. Perhaps the 'Matrix' is creeping into our Civ3 games.

In this aspect, the AI behaves like any backbiting and backstabbing human. Think of Hitler and Saddam. They both pretended to be friends to other civ's / nations. Then BAM! They declare war, or try to disrupt your civ via terrorism or covert actions.

But you know what would be neat?

Playing aganist the SkyNet AI from the Terminator series at a game of Civ3. Nukes! Nukes! Nukes!

	07-02-2004 05:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Bismark is normally an unfriendly fellow.

Hehe, an understatement. I'm still smarting from the only Monarch game I've played with C3C, where I lost in 3000BC to an attack by an archer defended by a spear.

Bismarck as an early neighbour always makes me groan.

	07-02-2004 18:20									#19
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Well how' this for backstabbing. I allied with Egypt vs China. I click end turn and it egypt and i receive a msg they signed peace with china. I had bounded the alliance with some ressources so it opened the dip windof for Egypt. I allied again against china for not that much(they just signed peace). It was the other civs turn and came china's turn. Guess what happaned they signed peace with egypt again. Betraed twice in a sinlge turn :S

	08-02-2004 00:21									#20
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That is going to be hard to top.

	15-02-2004 01:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Just based on observation, rather than any testing, the more aggressive an AI civ the more likely they seem to be to turn on you, use privateers or whatever. The less aggressive civs tend to hang in on alliances until it really hurts them. I may be wrong but I do think AI aggressiveness influences this behaviour.

i've seen the same behavior in my games; such as recently there was a fleet of indian privateers (i enslaved some of them later which is how i knew they were indian) not attacking my galleons.

scandinavia agression level of 3 vs indian agression level of 0.. makes sense to me

	15-02-2004 20:09									#22
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Ouch, BulMaster.

This is exactly why I either...

1. Never sign any Military Alliances Aganist "civ name" while the other civ's are at war

2. Sign MPP's with solitary civ's that have no contact with other civ's

	19-02-2004 14:32									#23
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Yeah MMPs suck. Well to be optimistic they make the game more interesting.

You know in my current game the Zulus were a bunch of pussies and the Germans well are just sitting around doing nothing. The agressive ones in my game are the persians ... and me

But yeah. At the moment everyone is either at war or about to go to war. I'm fighting a couple of the strongest nations at the moment, a few weakers ones are on the anti-me bandwagon which is annoying. I'm currently descended into anarchy to change government from Democracy to not sure (reccommendations?) and then i'm gonna mobilize and finish it.

	19-02-2004 23:13									#24
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Yes, the annoyance factor with Privateers is quite high. I especially liked it when Portugal kept sending them at me in a recent game. How did I know it was them? Well, since only they and I had Magnetism, I just kind of guessed...

You'd think I'd be able to confront them.

"Listen, Henry, about those Privateers. Seriously, stop it."

"What are you talking about? Those aren't mine."

"Well, unless I'm sinking my own ships, yes, yes they are."

	20-02-2004 02:57									#25
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Heh Caesar.

You know what would be nice?

Once you discover Combustion or Mass Production, all your ships become immune to privateers, (Wood vs Steel... foregone conclusion)

	20-02-2004 06:25									#26
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The only game I really had to deal with lots of privaters was my last Sid game. They would hit me ove and over.

	20-02-2004 18:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sovereign Heh Caesar. You know what would be nice? Once you discover Combustion or Mass Production, all your ships become immune to privateers, (Wood vs Steel... foregone conclusion)

um, South China Seas, current day, our planet...

wooden vessels are still carrying pirates in attempts to capture Steel ships...

true story, happens quite a lot...

	20-02-2004 21:24									#28
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For real, Paddy?

Wooden ships like the Pirates in the 1600's? Or simple wooden fishermen ships?

Any stories or antecodes that I could look that stuff up? I'd be interested in reading about it!

	20-02-2004 21:57									#29
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hahaha,

actually wooden speed boats,,,, um I was taking a tad bit of License

In the morning I will try to get you some links

	21-02-2004 03:24									#30
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there is lots of piracy still going on to this day. mainly in indonesia, somalia, etc. they ride boats and have knives, and the richer ones have big guns and fast ships

a search on google will bring up lots of websites about modern day pirates