04-02-2004 13:57									#1
	PBEM Diplomacy Question Put an end to popups!

In a PBEM game there are many deals u can make w/ human players that u simply could not w/ the AI & u dont necessarily have 2 wait 4 techs, such as military alliances / ROP b4 writing or even MPP in the ancient era, i have never heard anyone complain that is cheating. What about map trading. Conquests pushed map trading back 2 navigation, i understand y has changed my strategy / made it difficult especially w/ no communication trading until printing press also. Does this mean that capturing a screen shot & emailing 2 another player 2 simulate map trading would b considered cheating or would that b acceptable considering the kinds of deals often made in PBEMs anyway, provided u had made contact first of course. thoughts anyone / everyone?

	04-02-2004 18:39									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I would only consider it cheating if the game rules disallowed it. If youre halfway through the game, I would suggest discussing this with the other players, though they might not like it, since someone will be the recipeint of war.

This is something that should be determined before each pbem game. I don't have a philisophical problem with not allowing screenies, so long as everyone knows its allowed.

Also you have to keep in mind that screenshots can be faked.

	04-02-2004 21:52									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes it needs to be a part of any house rules from the start. Someone needs to formulate a set of guidelines that people can use. It is too easy to get part way into a game and discover a new ploy or twist that was not talked about.
Treaties can have lots of details and still miss some keys elements. What is the letter of the rules and what is the intent of it?

	04-02-2004 22:08									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As far as the game is concerned, it is cheating. As far as the people involved are concerned, that's up to them. If it is a "house rule" that out-of-game communications are acceptable, then email, text, covert agreements, and pictures would be available for use and there would be no way to enforce or control that use.

In a card game, such as bridge or poker, is it acceptable to show another person part or all of your hand? If so, it is acceptable to show each other screenshots. Would others object in a game of hearts if two people kept passing notes to each other?

However, I do like the idea that someone brought up, that of passing "disinformation". That would be fun. "Yes, I do have all the aces in this hand. Trust me!"

	04-02-2004 22:10									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't have a link, but I think Dominae wrote a nice article in the PBEM forum about game rule specifics that the players agree to beforehand. You might try to find that and take a look at it.

	04-02-2004 23:17									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Game rules should be agreed to before the game, but as the game progresses there can be some question as to what exactly may be a violation of the house rules.

If the House rules are not clear or haven't been agreed to, then tthe question should be discussed in the PBEM thread with the Host acting as the judge if no consensus can be established.

In this case I would consider it a cheat if there had not been a previous agreement to allow early map trading.

	04-02-2004 23:22									#7
	Idealist's Litmus Test for PBEM Cheating Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you are an idealist, and don't want to cheat and don't want others to cheat in a PBEM game, here's a suggestion:
Ask everyone playing your PBEM game whether THEY think a certain action (e.g. trading screenshots) is cheating.
What will result is either:
a) There will be consensus that it IS cheating, is deplorable, carries penalties when caught, etc., and you'll know where you stand - i.e. don't cheat or do so at your own peril.
b) There will be a consensus that it is NOT cheating, and therefore you are free to do it.
c) There will be no consensus, in which case you can count on some players' doing it to gain some advantage, therefore it is de facto 'practiced cheating', therefore you do it or choose not to do it at your discretion.
In any of these three cases you know where you stand.

There's nothing like putting the issue out in the open to get a resolution, to ensure that everyone is involved in and aware of that resolution, and to influence behaviour going forward.

I acknowledge that this 'Litmus test' for PBEM cheating will not be embraced by those who want to do something (e.g. trade screenshots) to gain some secret advantage. Ultimately though, it is the viewpoints of the players you game with that matter more than anyone else's.

In general, the PBEM game allows all kinds of opportunity for rich diplomacy outside of the game's interface. Having played many PBEM games I think that interpersonal diplomacy is the ONLY redeeming aspect of PBEM, as compared with the other game modes. However, PBEM also allows all kinds of methods and opportunities for cheating; this is what makes it so important that the players agree on what is in or out of bounds.

I don't advocate any kind of cheating (in fact I have filed problem reports and corresponded with Firaxis to close certain MP cheating loopholes), however I think that you have to go into PBEM games with your eyes open. Even really good people that you trust to behave with integrity in the real world might cheat in a computer game wherein there is no way to tell that cheating has taken place, and wherein the consequences of cheating are not apparent to the cheater. To ignore this would be naive (though you may be happier come to think of it).

Sigh - bvc

	05-02-2004 06:57									#8
	Put an end to popups!

thanx 4 the feedback so far, generally i think everyone is agreed that it is okay if everyone agrees it is okay. i hate cheating & u cant eliminate every aspect of cheating in a PBEM w/ a bunch of rules becasue someone is going to always come up w/ something new & doesnt wanna ask about it in mid game because it's a 'new' idea the other players might not have thought of. in this particular incident both myself & the player who i am allied w/ have already determined we would not feel comfortable doing so in the game & have resorted to 'describing' the map instead, such as "hey, there's an iron resource by that American city, three spaces west one to the north" or "good city location over the mountains to the east, past the plains, you'll c a river"