04-02-2004 19:19									#1
	AI oddities - Bugs? Remove this text

Ok.

I've been playing my first random game of 1.15. Ok, really the first random game of conquests now I think of it.

I made so many mistakes early, and since I was Japan, and therefore religious, I figured I would turn this into a test-bed game to try out all the govts and various other things. This is on Emperor btw.

So, I was wondering if this is a trend or if I just have an odd game here.

The First Oddity: The AI and Upgrading units.

I went to war with England for Iron. They had two sources, and despite the fact that I declared peace after obtaining the first one and then proceeding to build up to finish them off, they never once opgraded a single warrior to a sword.

Later, same story with Arabia and Salt Peter. They have 2 sources, I needed one, this time they DID upgrade a few of their pikes. A total of 4, actually. And, despite them having Iron right up until I finish them off, I still ran into spears.

The Second Oddity: The AI and Longbows.

My lord, if I see another longbow comming at me I'm just about ready to punch a hole through the screen. Now, longbows are fine, don't get me wrong, but when China could be building RIDERS, they had horses and iron from the get go why in the hell did they attack me with a total of 10 Riders, 8 Medeival Infantry, and 30! Longbows!

Babylon was the same. No knights, tons of longbows, but they at least made a little more sense considering their UU.

Still, this got me wondering, and sure enough, when I started flipping on the governers, at least half my cities wanted to build LONGBOWS! I WAS USING CALVARY AT THIS POINT! What in all hell good are Longbows when everyone has riflemen and I can build cavalry?

The Third Oddity: The AI and Leaders

During my assault on Babylon, one of their longbows attacked and killed a Samurai, generated a leader, and I watched said leader slink back to their Capitol.

I purposely held off hoping to see what kind of army they would come back out with because I had 3 armies of Samurai of my own and wanted to see the battle. No Army comes, it's been 8 turns, so I attack the capitol, killing 10 Riflemen, 4 longbows, capturing 3 cannons...and killing that same military leader. One that if used to create an army of riflemen could have well put an end to my assault right there. What gives? Why no army?

The foruth oddity: The AI and Privateers

Yeah, privateers, I wanted to test something on the enslave, but unfortunately to date I have 10 victories and no enslave. However, the AI has completely ignored them. Times past they would hunt them down with no chance of stopping, but now they just ignore them completely.

Perhaps with good reason as I can rarely kill anything without superior numbers, but still, why ignore them all together? I even managed to barrackade a fleet of galleons, and still no attack from them...

Perhaps it's a lack of Frigates on the AI's part?

Given the Privateers and Longbow oddity, it would seem to me the AI is putting ALLOT of value on defensive bombard. TOO much.

	04-02-2004 19:54									#2
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I wonder why Longbows rate so high on the AI's build scheme?

	04-02-2004 21:10									#3
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I never seen the AI build an army

	04-02-2004 21:11									#4
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As for the upgrades, the most obvious thing I can think of is that the AI hadn't built many barracks? I'm still using 1.12 but the AI generally seems to upgrade where it can.

Longbows is more difficult. The AI seems to like the defensive bombardment ability but too much in C3C. I edited longbows to have this in PTW and the AI there generally preferred to build MI if it could. I now see a lot of TOW infantry in my games but that may be because of scarcity of oil rather than choice.

The leaders one has started to puzzle me. I am currently playing with the military academy edited so anyone can build it and that it generates a leader every 20 turns rather than allowing building armies. The AI is using those MGL's to rush city improvements, not create armies. Given that C3C armies are better than ever that is just crazy!

	04-02-2004 21:22									#5
	Re: AI oddities - Bugs? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx The First Oddity: The AI and Upgrading units.

This is usually due to a lack of cash, and is especially apparent in C3C where upgrade costs have been increased.

quote: The Second Oddity: The AI and Longbows.

I'm not sure that's a big problem. Longowmen cost half as much as Knights for the same attack value, and the AI doesn't take advantage of fast-movers as well as humans do anyway. Longbows also have defensive bombard, which Medieval Infantry don't. The AI usually escorts its attackers with plenty of defensive units, so they are actually better off building Longbowmen instead of Medieval Infantry.

quote: The Third Oddity: The AI and Leaders

This is a big problem. The AI doesn't make Armies in C3C, or at least it's very rare. I played a debug game giving the AI free leaders and not a single Army was created. In my experience they didn't hold on to them though, they rushed settlers and warriors! Hopefully this will be fixed.

quote: The foruth oddity: The AI and Privateers

Not sure about this one. Perhaps you're right that the AI values defensive bombard too much. I wonder if they fear Guerillas now, and build them instead of Infantry...

	04-02-2004 21:33									#6
	Re: Re: AI oddities - Bugs? Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, man, I forgot to mail Our PBEM save along Cerebus. I'll get it first thing after work.

quote: Originally posted by alexman This is usually due to a lack of cash, and is especially apparent in C3C where upgrade costs have been increased.

I figured that was at least a part of it. Perhaps the AI needs to be 'taught' to lower it's science in a time of war to upgrade units? I don't know, it just made things dissappointingly easy.

quote: I'm not sure that's a big problem. Longowmen cost half as much as Knights for the same attack value, and the AI doesn't take advantage of fast-movers as well as humans do anyway. Longbows also have defensive bombard, which Medieval Infantry don't. The AI usually escorts its attackers with plenty of defensive units, so they are actually better off building Longbowmen instead of Medieval Infantry.

Yes, but Longbowmen > Cavalry? Come on! My governors were favoring Longbows to CAVALRY! That can't be good for the AI.

quote: This is a big problem. The AI doesn't make Armies in C3C, or at least it's very rare. I played a debug game giving the AI free leaders and not a single Army was created. In my experience they didn't hold on to them though, they rushed settlers and warriors! Hopefully this will be fixed.

quote: Not sure about this one. Perhaps you're right that the AI values defensive bombard too much. I wonder if they fear Guerillas now, and build them instead of Infantry...

I can certainly drag this game out and see. Hell I've won anyway. 50% of landmass and 55 % of pop, it's just a few turns for me to crush whatever remains of China with the RoP they just gave me anyway ... I'll gift everything back to those that are left so they all have resources and see what happens. I could even post the save if you folks want to tinker around with it as well.

	04-02-2004 22:02									#7
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I was about to declare that my game was suspect as Korea has not shown up with any pikes or swords. I was assuming they did not have Iron or Horse on this large contient, of which they had at least 3/4.
My end seems to have all the hills, but I cannot see all of their land yet, so I was not sure.
Now your point makes me wonder if they just have not upgraded, but then why no new ones.
I have not seen a warrior in a very long time, only archers and spears. I know money is an issue, but still no pikes or swords or horses? That would be a very nasty draw, but expalin why they wanted one of my towns so bad. It turns out Iron was close by and I have at least three iron deposits. The price of having a big mountain range. Bad for cities, good for resources, although I don't see any gold or diamonds.

The leaders aspect is just a serious flaw in the strategy of the AI.

	05-02-2004 05:07									#8
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quote: the AI doesn't take advantage of fast-movers as well as humans do

Then why have I had to fight off horsemen after horsemen? The AI seems to do the exact opposite in my observance; they favor FM's because, well, they're FM's!! They can get to your cities twice as fast!

	05-02-2004 18:59									#9
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On the Privateers.

It would seem the AI has no problems attacking them provided you are at war. It would seem, therefore to be some problem with hidden nationality.

However, I now have recorded 23 victories and no enslave. Either I am having terrible luck, or there is something fishy with Privateer's enslave.

	05-02-2004 19:45									#10
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I can't speak for the latest patch as I stopped playing after 1.12, but then the enslavement by privateers worked a charm. In one game I built 2 or 3 privateers, sent them out and in the end I had a fleet of over 10, the rest of which being enslaved privateers. The bad thing is, due to the well-known bug you can't heal them in a harbor without risking a war, since the AI will mercilessly hunt them and attack them even when they're in a city (and thus, should be invisible).

	05-02-2004 20:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The bad thing is, due to the well-known bug you can't heal them in a harbor without risking a war, since the AI will mercilessly hunt them and attack them even when they're in a city (and thus, should be invisible).

Whoah, hadn't heard of that one. Haven't experienced it either. Are you saying the AI will attack your Privateers when their in Harbor and accidently declare war?

	05-02-2004 20:58									#12
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Something has surely changed then, as I have flagrantly sailed these privateers right through their waters, openly attack anything that was not escorted by a frigate, and if sufficient numbers even the frigates, but no one made any move to attack the Privateers until the Zulu declared war on me, then they proceeded to attack.

War is fine by me as that stack of 6 frigates and 5 privateers is quite effective of bombarding things to slivers and then sinking them with the privateers, but still no enslave.

I'll keep at it to see if it's just my rotten luck, though.

	05-02-2004 21:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The bad thing is, due to the well-known bug you can't heal them in a harbor without risking a war, since the AI will mercilessly hunt them and attack them even when they're in a city (and thus, should be invisible).

Kind of makes sense. If your civ is harboring privateers then you must pay the consequences. But only if an AI unit observes the privateer entering the city. Of course, the AI could always use espianage to investigate your city and find them that way.

	05-02-2004 21:19									#14
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But I didn't think a ship could attack a city. I thought it had to be a land unit. Does this mean the AI send land forces to attack a city that has a Privateer in it?

	05-02-2004 21:59									#15
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I wonder if the reason your were immune to attacks is that you had a very strong civ and lots of ships?

	05-02-2004 22:10									#16
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That doesn't sound like a bug if they only attack you if you are weaker than they are and they hate you for pirating their ships.

	05-02-2004 22:23									#17
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I AM without a doubt the power of the game for a long time now, but I ignored navy as my home continent will win the game for me anyway.

Probably NOW I am also the naval power, but when my first Privateer rolled off, I had a 'navy' of exactly 3 galleys, and I went about bopping on Dutch Galleons with it, but was never counter-attacked.

	05-02-2004 23:21									#18
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quote: Alexman said... I wonder if they fear Guerillas now, and build them instead of Infantry...

I have seen lots of guerillas come out of the AI fog in games that went that long, when they had also built a few infantry. I suppose the guerillas could have been from upgrades, but I didnt get that feeling - that's pretty expensive, with infantry not that much more.

quote: GhengisFarb opined: But I didn't think a ship could attack a city. I thought it had to be a land unit. Does this mean the AI send land forces to attack a city that has a Privateer in it?

Has anyone ever reported using a ship to attack an AI city containing a ship? If its the ship that is attacked, not the city, then that's different, and land units couldnt do it - could they? If you kill the last land unit in a city containing a ship, the ship dies too. What happens if you attack a city containing only a ship? I dont think I've ever seen that.

GarP2

	06-02-2004 00:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GarP2 Has anyone ever reported using a ship to attack an AI city containing a ship? If its the ship that is attacked, not the city, then that's different, and land units couldnt do it - could they? If you kill the last land unit in a city containing a ship, the ship dies too. What happens if you attack a city containing only a ship? I dont think I've ever seen that. GarP2

Since GarP2 seems to think my question was childish and ignorant.

It was mentioned there is a bug where the AI will hunt down the human player's Privateers going so far as to attack them if they are moved into a harbor (only harbor I know of in this game is a city, so if are other harbors please enlighten me) it will attack the harbor and initiate a war.

I didn't think a ship could do that in this game, but then perhaps that is the bug?

	06-02-2004 00:34									#20
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I've only used privateers a few times in C3C (and not once since v1.15) but when I did use them the AI civs were quite happy to attack my privateers, even when I was at peace with the world. I haven't seen any AI attacks on cities harboring privateers as Sir Ralph reports, but perhaps he means that AIs will bombard (instead of pure attack) privateers? Bombarding will prioritize naval units in a city, but I could see how, in doing so against a privateer, it would constitute an act of war in-game.

Sir Ralph - could you clarify what you're seeing with privateers in port?

Catt

	06-02-2004 01:40									#21
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Yeah, it does seem like the AI will go out of its way to kill allied Privateers. But I just viewed that as one of the risks to using them.

Crud. Just realized Sir Ralph is probably mass building Privateers in the Naval PBEM.

	06-02-2004 01:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Crud. Just realized Sir Ralph is probably mass building Privateers in the Naval PBEM.

That's what you get for being the tech dunce in that game!

My last game had a lot of Portuguese privateers but I had no ships and wasn't at war with them during that period. But privateers only have defensive bombardment in C3C (and no bombardment at all in PTW) don't they? So they would have to "attack" a city and this isn't possible, the game won't allow it. Frigates can bombard cities and will hit ships first. Is this what Sir Ralph means? If so, it is a serious bug and right up there with the "sorry we just ran over your submarine" one.

	06-02-2004 02:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV That's what you get for being the tech dunce in that game!

It all stems from not realizing we weren't allow to trade techs and then having to research like mad to catch up with everyone later.

What happened to Sir Ralph?

	06-02-2004 11:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The bad thing is, due to the well-known bug you can't heal them in a harbor without risking a war, since the AI will mercilessly hunt them and attack them even when they're in a city (and thus, should be invisible).

This is a well-known bug in Colonization also (unless that's what you were thinking of). The point was brought up in a discussion once that this could be rationalized as a nation holding the city responsible for harboring known criminals. The only problem being, the palyer can't do the same to the AI without causing war. Maybe Firaxis dug into the old bag of tricks?

	06-02-2004 23:31									#25
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quote: GhengisFarb wrote: Since GarP2 seems to think my question was childish and ignorant.

No, no, GF! No criticism intended. My question was ignorant and I guess not very clear. What I was trying to ask was if anyone had tried using a ship to attack a city with a ship in it. I havent, and didnt know but what it would let ship attack ship but not ship attack land unit.

I guess I also took "attack" literally, rather than including bombard, and if it meant 'bombard', then I guess Catt's post explains it. As far as that goes, I didnt know that bombard would preferentially target ships either.

GarP2

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