04-02-2004 21:46									#1
	Please, please spell check your scenario Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I was poking around in the scenario archives at Apolyton when I came across an article that touched on my experience with some recent, and some not so recent, scenarios.

The article is "Advanced Scenario Design" by Leon Marrick, assisted by Harlan Thompson and others. The section that rang a bell with me was "How to tell a bad scenario: The Seven Signs". What follows is a direct quote except that, for brevity, I have taken the liberty of removing the authors' descriptions of points that have no bearing on the present topic:

"How to tell a bad scenario: The Seven Signs

Bad scenarios are two-a-penny; they seem to breed wherever not rigorously controlled. The following tip-offs seem like no-brainers, but how ubiquitous they are!

1. An unfunctional scenario.
2. A garbled readme or scenario briefing. Nobody has any excuse for not spell-checking his work, or for not making certain his audience knows what the scenario is. Those writing documents in a second language had better make QUITE certain they are comprehensible.
3. A map mostly consisting of grassland.
4. By-guess-and-by-God terrain alterations
5. Misspelled city names. Some people use an atlas in their native tongue when naming cities. This is good, especially in scenarios with protagonists speaking that language (There is a Catalan scenario that benefits greatly from this.). Others, whose own language may not be English, use English to attract a wider audience. This, too, is good, although extreme care is required. Some people can't seem to decide which language they are using. This is pathetic. Check out an atlas, and get a dictionary.
6. No or inappropriate scenario limitations
7. Cities that riot, starve, sell off structures, etc. during the first turn."

I would like to add another point to this list:

8. Misspellings or bad grammar in any window or pop-up that a player will see during the course of the game.


It does not take much reading of the threads at this site to realize how much time and effort designers spend to get the unit names, unit icons and unit placements absolutely right; to obtain and edit the appropriate map; struggle with the limitations of events and rules files to get the AI to correctly move units; and then fix the inevitable bugs that show up during play testing. The effort put in to get a professional result is immense. As a player, I truly admire and appreciate your work.

What I find difficult to understand is why, after you have spent hundreds of hours on your project, the hour or two needed to thoroughly spell check events, game, labels and rules files are sometimes so difficult to come by. It really is jarring to start a superbly crafted scenario and within ten minutes see spelling errors that would embarrass a sixth grader. In a few instances, where a particular pop-up appeared frequently, I've gone in and fixed it just so I would not have to look at the same mistake hundreds of times.

I realize that some designers may not have an English language spell check available on their word processing software. However, in view of the incredibly high degree of cooperation that exists among the participants at this site, it should not be difficult to find someone who can do it for you. Heck, if you're really stuck, give me a shout.

	05-02-2004 01:05									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I couldn't agree more. That document should be required reading for any self-respecting scenario maker anyway, even if some of it is outdated by now.

	05-02-2004 10:47									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, if we can't read the readme, how are we supposed to understand the concept of the game?

	05-02-2004 21:55									#4
	Actually . . . . . Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I studied that document thoroughly before I ever attempted to create my first scenario. It was incredibly helpful, like all the Scenario League hints/tips.

And yeah, I often run across designers who, very obviously, do not have english as a first language and who err prodigiously in matters of not simply spelling, but also grammar.

It's not always an indicator of a bad scenario though.

	05-02-2004 22:43									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The SL tips are always useful, especially those concerning sound FX.

Typos, etc are an inevitable part of the process - too many late nights and red bull can allow bugs to creep into the events or game messages!

And MS word does not always pick up improper grammar!

	05-02-2004 22:58									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

ottok write readme

	06-02-2004 01:37									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've had people read my stuff before I release it. Hopefully it helped

	06-02-2004 02:06									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm very sorry to disagree, but I believe you should try to understand that for some of us English isn't easy. I believe that if you'd know how much effort some of us put in writing in English, you won't complain about our English

However, I understand that for english native speakers, some of the documents that I wrote are a very difficult thing to read

	06-02-2004 02:55									#9
	Sorry if I screwed up Tired of ads?

I really thought that when I wrote

"I realize that some designers may not have an English language spell check available on their word processing software. However, in view of the incredibly high degree of cooperation that exists among the participants at this site, it should not be difficult to find someone who can do it for you. Heck, if you're really stuck, give me a shout."

it would be taken as truly innocuous and possibly helpful suggestion.

Also, if I had been writing the article by Leon Marrick, I would have used considerably different language in the section I quoted. However, one can't start editing a direct quote.

Actually, I have experienced the difficulty of writing in a language other than one's native tongue. English is not my native language, it is my third language.

	06-02-2004 03:16									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It should be said that I have huge respect for scenario makers who write
all the events and other text matter, even if English is their sencond language.

And there are many such creators in our CIV2 community.

I could imagine my pathetic attempts at trying to write something like an events file in Swedish or German...

My hat's off to these guys!

	06-02-2004 03:27									#11
	Re: Sorry if I screwed up Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA I really thought that when I wrote "I realize that some designers may not have an English language spell check available on their word processing software. However, in view of the incredibly high degree of cooperation that exists among the participants at this site, it should not be difficult to find someone who can do it for you. Heck, if you're really stuck, give me a shout." it would be taken as truly innocuous and possibly helpful suggestion. Also, if I had been writing the article by Leon Marrick, I would have used considerably different language in the section I quoted. However, one can't start editing a direct quote. Actually, I have experienced the difficulty of writing in a language other than one's native tongue. English is not my native language, it is my third language.

You don't need to say sorry, Agricola, I've overreacted. Sorry for that. It's only that I feel ashamed of my english (specially when I try to write quickly) and I didn't react in a good way.

	06-02-2004 03:32									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I'm very sorry to disagree, but I believe you should try to understand that for some of us English isn't easy. I believe that if you'd know how much effort some of us put in writing in English, you won't complain about our English

I disagree. If you can have your scenario thoroughly playtested, there's no excuse for not having it checked for spelling/grammar by other members of this community as well.

I can understand not everyone writes English perfectly, but there are plenty of people around here who do. So, if you're not paying attention to it, you're knowingly neglecting an integral part of your scenario.

	06-02-2004 03:33									#13
	Put an end to popups!

@Curtsibling

I couldn't agree more!


@PANDA

How do I get a message to you. Your PM is blocked and your junk mail blocker is doing a fine job on my E-mails.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 06-02-2004 at 03:39

	06-02-2004 03:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Mercator I disagree. If you can have your scenario thoroughly playtested, there's no excuse for not having it checked for spelling/grammar by other members of this community as well. I can understand not everyone writes English perfectly, but there are plenty of people around here who do. So, if you're not paying attention to it, you're knowingly neglecting an integral part of your scenario.

but will you make it the 8th rule to tell what is a bad scen? I mean, a pop-up can be bad written and still the scen could be good.

	06-02-2004 04:02									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'd say the 2nd rule already covers most of it, so the "8th rule" can be seen as an extension of that, really.

A few small errors are no big deal, but if the English is bad throughout, the creator did a bad job. So, yes it IS a bad scenario, IMHO.

It will of course be less critical than, for example, a scenario that won't start at all. It can still be fun to play.

Say, I would make some historical scenario, but I couldn't find enough sources. Instead of asking here for more info, I release a scenario where the units are obviously wearing the wrong uniforms, historical pop-ups use wrong dates and names, cities are placed badly etc.

Would you consider that a good scenario? Even if it were actually fun to play?

If that scenario would be about a little known time and place in history, or if the author wasn't a member at the time he created it, it would be understandable and acceptable. If not, he was doing a bad job.

	06-02-2004 04:18									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: I'd say the 2nd rule already covers most of it, so the "8th rule" can be seen as an extension of that, really. A few small errors are no big deal, but if the English is bad throughout, the creator did a bad job. So, yes it IS a bad scenario, IMHO.

I have a great idea. I'll write my scenario texts in spanish so there won't be errors at all. Then, you'll have to admit that the creator did a good job.

	06-02-2004 04:22									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Say, I would make some historical scenario, but I couldn't find enough sources. Instead of asking here for more info, I release a scenario where the units are obviously wearing the wrong uniforms, historical pop-ups use wrong dates and names, cities are placed badly etc.

Yes, but uniforms, pop-ups etc... I can always seek for information in my own language. I can work a lot harder to improve them... but I don't see how I can improve the English of my scenaries/documents.

@jasev,jasev,jasev:

Please, please, please check your PMs and emails. It's very important, please.

	06-02-2004 05:12									#18
	Tired of ads?

I will spiel check senarios for only a small fee!

	06-02-2004 05:14									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

How about actaully making the scenario for me?

	06-02-2004 05:49									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by jasev I have a great idea. I'll write my scenario texts in spanish so there won't be errors at all. Then, you'll have to admit that the creator did a good job.

quote: Originally posted by yaroslav ... but I don't see how I can improve the English of my scenaries/documents.

Is it really that hard to ask people on these forums to help you out? You all use playtesters, don't you? Their job is to find bugs or problems with the playability/accuracy of the scenario, right? Then why don't you ask anyone to find problems with your language use?

quote: Originally posted by Boco I will spiel check senarios for only a small fee!

quote: Originally posted by curtsibling How about actaully making the scenario for me?

I hope you're not talking to me.
I do intend to make some, though, eventually.

	06-02-2004 16:52									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If you want to post .txt files here in notepad or wordpad or whatever, then I'm quite happy to spellcheck anyone's English.

Even yours Curt.

	06-02-2004 16:57									#22
	Suffering from ads?

quote: If you want to post .txt files here in notepad or wordpad or whatever, then I'm quite happy to spellcheck anyone's English.

I'll remember your words and make sure you regret them

	06-02-2004 17:13									#23
	Got spare money?

Same here!

	06-02-2004 17:27									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

I didn't say how long I'd take reading them.

Seriously, I'm happy to do it for anyone who asks, but don't send them all together. I know both English and French, so won't be much use if you're looking for a translation from Spanish or any other language (well, the bloke sitting opposite me at work is German), but spell checking and proof-reading are fine. I did my girlfriend's entire doctorate thesis, so I'm sure I could go through some read-mes and event files.

If you want to keep your files secret from the community and don't want to post them here, then I don't know if you can PM attachments, but if not then send me a PM, and I'll reply with my e-mail address.

*Note to self - unhappy with the grammatical structure of that last sentence*

	06-02-2004 18:16									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Heck, if you're really stuck, give me a shout.

I meant it when I wrote it. Both my PM and E-mail are operational, as far as I know.

My spell checker is at your diposal. Editorial experience? Started a long time ago, editing my father's research papers for spelling and idiomatic English.

	06-02-2004 18:19									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I use Microsoft Word to spell check when it is possible.

	06-02-2004 19:05									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I use Microsoft Word to spell check when it is possible.

So do I. But if the MSWord english corrector is as bad as the spanish corrector... .

	06-02-2004 19:28									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Be warned!

If you want me to check your English then you'd better specify beforehand whether you want UK English, US English, Engrish or Scots Scottish ("The neds have broken the cease-fire!). I prefer to have a u in my colour, etc, so if you want the US version then please say so.

	06-02-2004 20:10									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york If you want to post .txt files here in notepad or wordpad or whatever, then I'm quite happy to spellcheck anyone's English. Even yours Curt.

I might well make you regret your offer soon, Duke...

And I prefer my English not chewing-gum flavoured, if you don't mind...

Edit: on the other hand, I don't mind a single malt peaty flavour...

	06-02-2004 20:19									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well I don't post at weekends, so if you wanted your checking done by Monday then you'd better get it to me in an hour and a half!

(Not to put any pressure on you btw )