05-02-2004 02:13									#31
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I agree with Mindseye. My words exactly.



indeed.



And bfg9000--funniest joke I've seen all day.

	05-02-2004 02:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It'll take two years before they can vote on an amendment to ban gay marriage? State procedural rule?

Dunno, but that's what it said in the article.

	05-02-2004 02:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Che It's gonna be two years before they can vote on it. That's enough time to bring a case to the SCOTUS. A couple gets married, crosses state lines, and forces another state to recognize the marriage or go to court. WOOT!

WOOOT!

(accidentally spills champagne on Che's sneakers as he kisses him)

	05-02-2004 02:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I agree with Mindseye. My words exactly. indeed. And bfg9000--funniest joke I've seen all day.

You mean that there is no ficking smilie limit?

	05-02-2004 02:22									#35
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Ah, I see, missed that. Looks as though Massachustes has herself in a bind.

This is very bad news for the Democrats. The public, which overwhelmingly opposes marriages for gays, is likely to see this issue explose in the national spotlight and move gay rights front and center. People will soon find out that gay marriage is not only in Massachustes, but also in every state without a DOMA law, and I suspect even in some states with DOMA some Federal District Judges in DOMA states will declare DOMA unconstitutional. The Democratic Candidates will then have to choose between betraying gay rights and outraging their base, likely leading to lower turnout and more defections to third parties, or it could choose to not back action against the tide of gay rights and gretly anger swing voters.

	05-02-2004 02:23									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It'll take two years before they can vote on an amendment to ban gay marriage? State procedural rule?

From the above...

quote: The soonest a constitutional amendment could end up on the ballot would be 2006, meaning that until then, the high court's decision will be Massachusetts law no matter what is decided at the constitutional convention.

While the state may have been leaning towards an amendment earlier, the language used in the majority opinion will make it a LOT harder to pass such an amendment. In any event, a step in the right direction.

quote: "The history of our nation has demonstrated that separate is seldom, if ever, equal," the four justices who ruled in favor of gay marriage wrote in the advisory opinion. A bill that would allow for civil unions, but falls short of marriage, makes for "unconstitutional, inferior, and discriminatory status for same-sex couples."

Pretty strong stuff there, pally.

btw:

	05-02-2004 02:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It'll take two years before they can vote on an amendment to ban gay marriage? State procedural rule?

From the quoted article:

quote: The soonest a constitutional amendment could end up on the ballot would be 2006, meaning that until then, the high court's decision will be Massachusetts law no matter what is decided at the constitutional convention.

WOOOOT!
(pours champagne over Shi Huangdi's head

	05-02-2004 02:24									#38
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DOMA is unconstitutional. It's just that no one has any standing to challenge it yet. First you have to have a married gay couple.

People were against Blacks and whites marrying, but eventually they were forced to accept it. They'll accept this too, especially once a major church accepts it (I'm looking at the Episcopalians).

	05-02-2004 02:26									#39
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Cross-post!

(clinks champagne glasses with Theben)

	05-02-2004 02:27									#40
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Can I get some love, mindseye?

...er... you know what I mean.

	05-02-2004 02:28									#41
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Actually, given the wording of their decision (which seems to be relying on Brown v Board of Education) an amendment to the Massachussetts Constitution might still be deemded unconstitutional by the Mass SC.

	05-02-2004 02:32									#42
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I also predict that this will eventually become in the long run the greatest disaster for gay civil rights. Think of this as the equivalent if the 1960's civil rights SCOTUS descriminations had come about in the 19th century when we were still very racist; a constitutional amendment would have backed segregation.

I think public demand will be enough, that, unless SCOTUS affirms the Constitutionality of DOMA, a Constitutional Amendment will pass to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The result of this will be unequal status constitutional affirmed, which would take a constitutional amendment and 3/4 of the states to approve in order to repeal it. Because there are more conservative States then liberal states(Conservative states usually have much fewer population then liberal states such as California or New York, but there are alot more of Conservative States). This will mean that not only will we have to wait until the country as a whole has had a change of heart on this issue, but until States such as Alabama, Wyoming, Tennesse, Kansas, South Carolina, Etc. have a change of heart on this issue, thus denying gays the right to marry for 100 years or more so, probably long after the rest of the world has already accepted it.

	05-02-2004 02:35									#43
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Good!

Another liberty upheld.

Now to see the SCOTUS showdown.

I'ld bet on UCC allowing it before Episcopalians, if I were a betting man.

	05-02-2004 02:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, given the wording of their decision (which seems to be relying on Brown v Board of Education) an amendment to the Massachussetts Constitution might still be deemded unconstitutional by the Mass SC.

I find that doubtful.

	05-02-2004 02:35									#45
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They can't affirm the consttutionality of the DOMA. It violates the "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution. The only way to get around that is a Constitutional amendment, and while a majority of Americans oppose gay marriage, enough people are in favor to possibly block such an amendment being passed.

	05-02-2004 02:36									#46
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Shi--

I don't think the Repubs will really try to push an Amendment in an election year. Polls might say that most people are against gay marriage, but they also show that most people really don't give a **** when pushed on the subject, and a consititutional amendment will probably be seen as too extreme.

I'm not saying the amendment wouldn't get passed--there's a pretty good chance it would. But I think it would lead to a big Dem win in November, and the Repubs aren't willing to take that chance.

	05-02-2004 02:38									#47
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Shi,

Attitudes towards Gays are changing rather quickly. It would be a race to see whether hard liners opposed to gay unions would be able to ram an ammendment home before the tide swings the other way.

I recon there would be a major PR push (in these days of media) that would swing a lot of folks.

	05-02-2004 02:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Shi-- I don't think the Repubs will really try to push an Amendment in an election year. Polls might say that most people are against gay marriage, but they also show that most people really don't give a **** when pushed on the subject, and a consititutional amendment will probably be seen as too extreme. I'm not saying the amendment wouldn't get passed--there's a pretty good chance it would. But I think it would lead to a big Dem win in November, and the Repubs aren't willing to take that chance.

I think they will try to push such an amendment now. It's true if this issue were emerging from the Right and it looked like pre-emptive action against gays it might not be popular, but as this issue has arisen from the left and it appears to be nessecary to prevent gay marriage from becoming the law of the land nationwide, it will most likely be very popular, and IIRC polls did indicate support for such an amendment.

This give Democrats the option of either making a stand for their principles and angering swing voters, or selling out their base once again and going forward with approving such an amendment. My bet based on typical Democratic tendencies are on the latter: the base is pissed off enough at Bush that they will believe that they will still support come November, so they will go for the option less likely to anger large amounts of moderates.

	05-02-2004 02:45									#49
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quote: Attitudes towards Gays are changing rather quickly

Yes, but not in a direction you'd be comfortable with. After Lawrence V. Texas, opposition towards gay marriage, civil unions went up, as did support for anti-gay marriage amendment. If that is the trend opposition to gay rights may climb even higher after this ruling.

	05-02-2004 02:50									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Yes, but not in a direction you'd be comfortable with. After Lawrence V. Texas, opposition towards gay marriage, civil unions went up, as did support for anti-gay marriage amendment. If that is the trend opposition to gay rights may climb even higher after this ruling.

Shi,

I personally don't give a rat heiney one way or the other. Live let live that kinna thing. If we're talking an ammendment the longer it takes the longer attitudes will soften as it becomes more and more indoctrinated into mainstream culture via TV media and other outlets.

	05-02-2004 02:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara DOMA is unconstitutional. It's just that no one has any standing to challenge it yet. First you have to have a married gay couple. People were against Blacks and whites marrying, but eventually they were forced to accept it. They'll accept this too, especially once a major church accepts it (I'm looking at the Episcopalians).

	05-02-2004 03:11									#52
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IMHO more people are wary of a possible amendment than legal gay marriage.

	05-02-2004 03:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Can I get some love, mindseye? ...er... you know what I mean.

SMACK!

(Slips cigar band over Guynemer's ring finger.)

	05-02-2004 03:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I also predict that this will eventually become in the long run the greatest disaster for gay civil rights.

Yeah, just like Loving v. Virgina was the death-blow to inter-racial marriage!

	05-02-2004 03:28									#55
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I'm not heedless to BD's warnings. He very well could be right. In fact, I think it's going to be a very close battle. But I think we can win. After all, we just need to stop thirteen states from passing such an amendment. But remember, 37 states (IIRC) have laws saying marriage is between a man and a woman. Don't dismiess BD so carelessly.

	05-02-2004 03:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus . While true New England states (sorry, I don't consider Connecticut and Rhodes Island part of this club) are rich in history, generally the population is young especially in Massachusetts. Boston at the first appear to be conversative but it's actually a liberal city.

No way, man. I see what you mean about CT, but RI is like Massachusetts-South, they just pronounce some things weird and have weird words for things (like they put gravy on pasta, not sauce). But still, most people outside of New England wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from Providence and someone from Boston.

	05-02-2004 03:52									#57
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn No way, man. I see what you mean about CT, but RI is like Massachusetts-South, they just pronounce some things weird and have weird words for things (like they put gravy on pasta, not sauce).

My Italian grandfather aways said gravy.

	05-02-2004 04:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber ya because thats exactly the same

I'm insulted. You really think I'd be bigoted enough to make such a post and not be joking about it?

	05-02-2004 04:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn No way, man. I see what you mean about CT, but RI is like Massachusetts-South, they just pronounce some things weird and have weird words for things (like they put gravy on pasta, not sauce). But still, most people outside of New England wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from Providence and someone from Boston.

Ayuh, how truah

	05-02-2004 04:53									#60
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hmm