05-02-2004 05:40									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Okey doke. Then it's OK for me to rip the CD and share it? Or do you now think that the information is property?

A CD you found on the street? If you have to do some sort of hacking to get the info on it, then it would be illegal due to other laws.

EDIT: thought the fact that you know there's almost certainly some sort of contract restricting the distribution of the music on the CD could make it a gray area...

	05-02-2004 05:40									#152
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I say, Ben, I never realized that Alec Guinness had such a great pair of knockers.

	05-02-2004 05:42									#153
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker A CD you found on the street? If you have to do some sort of hacking to get the info on it, then it would be illegal due to other laws.

But I don't. In any case, we are talking about morality here.

	05-02-2004 05:43									#154
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Hacking isn't immoral?

	05-02-2004 05:44									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Then in that case... ...arrange a plasticine deathmatch between Aristotle and Bentham...

alas but its been a while since I've last sculpted and I fear that I would do neither the justice they deserve.

	05-02-2004 05:44									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But I don't. In any case, we are talking about morality here.

I may be missing the point, but does finding a book on the street gives you the right to photocopy it?

	05-02-2004 05:46									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I may be missing the point, but does finding a book on the street gives you the right to photocopy it?

I hesitate to say anything, lest I am smote by philosopher logic but you have the right to photocopy a book that you find, you just don't have the right to distribute the photocopies. And if you return the book you must destroy the photocopies. Or else your soul will burn in hell. Legally speaking that is

	05-02-2004 05:46									#158
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Hacking isn't immoral?

How is ripping a CD hacking? That's allowed.

If you say it is, then I could just copy the CD to another CD and then rip that one. Againb, unless the information is property, there's no prob.

	05-02-2004 05:47									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon How is ripping a CD hacking? That's allowed. If you say it is, then I could just copy the CD to another CD and then rip that one. Againb, unless the information is property, there's no prob.

ripping a cd is entirely legal. You are allowed to make back up copies for yourself. Its the distribution that's illegal.

	05-02-2004 05:48									#160
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quote: How is ripping a CD hacking?

I dunno, I'm talking about IF here. I think it is (because if the thing is encrypted or whatever then it is essentially the same process as hacking into a server or something).

quote: If you say it is, then I could just copy the CD to another CD and then rip that one. Againb, unless the information is property, there's no prob.

Unless the copying was considered "hacking".

EDIT: again, I'm talking about IF here

	05-02-2004 05:49									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I may be missing the point, but does finding a book on the street gives you the right to photocopy it?

Morally speaking, it doesn't if the information in the book is property. Otherwise it appears so - unless someone can show how you agreed not to, without actually entering into an agreement with another person.

Legally speaking - AATW is right.

	05-02-2004 05:53									#162
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quote: Well, my excuse for breaking the law against murder is the Sauron taught me to kill all sentient beings...

But that lacks consistency, I'm inevitably drawn to the logical conclusion and not merely a moral one that I shouldn't kill. Of course, this is not an ideal world is it?

quote: The point is that the transaction is NOT complete when you hand over the money - the transaction is complete when you agree to abide by certain limitations on your use of the CD (such as not copying its contents).

No, the transaction is complete when the exchange of resources is complete. Furthermore, by them selling me the CD, they sell it under the condition, as far as I am aware, that there is no contract, or in a second scenario, the contract is void. After all, why sell it to me??

quote: You are allowed to record things off of the radio, so your argument is meaningless

No, your point there strengthens my argument.

quote: Which doesn't invalidate my statement at all - I was merely speculating that IF such-and-such was true, THEN something-else was ALSO true. I was not making a claim about the actual truth of either, just noticing a relationship

And I was taking it to its conclusion...

quote: You are OBVIOUSLY aware of the contract - how else would you be arguing about it?

Hypothetical situation of course. But it is true though. I am "vaguely" aware that it exists, but have never read one, and will not read one should someone post it here.

quote: The cd physically is yours, the information you do not own. Am I making sense?

The CD is physically mine, as with the results of any material transaction, the information is no-ones.

quote: Keeping a contract for contract's sake is only something a fool would do.

Then I certainly won't keep one for the RIAA's or BPI's!!

quote: Cute. you realize its irrelvant that you actually read that? (and if you get called into court, I will send the authorities this link as proof you know it exists

But don't read it... that would be one interesting court case!

quote: Okey doke. Then it's OK for me to rip the CD and share it? Or do you now think that the information is property?

I hear the sound of distant circumcisions...

quote: So do you hope to live off the goodwill of others?

Don't be ridiculous. I'd whore myself to the forces of capitalism.

quote: Hacking isn't immoral?

Hacking and copying cd's you have bought are two completely different kettle of fish.

quote: alas but its been a while since I've last sculpted and I fear that I would do neither the justice they deserve.

Oh please? I want to see the Felicific Faust rip out the black putty heart of Aristotle...

quote: I may be missing the point, but does finding a book on the street gives you the right to photocopy it?

Indeed, by our arguments, buying a book gives one that right. I'm happy with that.

quote: I dunno, I'm talking about IF here. I think it is (because if the thing is encrypted or whatever then it is essentially the same process as hacking into a server or something).

Hardly, once it resides on your property it's as good as having it in a language you cannot understand. Learn the language. Your argument would only hold if the CD was on a return-loan basis, or otherwise still the property of the record company, which I hope we have shown to be a fallacy.

quote: Morally speaking, it doesn't if the information in the book is property. Otherwise it appears so - unless someone can show how you agreed not to, without actually entering into an agreement with another person.

But the info in the book is free, the paper is not. Same situation as CD's still applies imo, as with any means of transmitting information.

quote: Legally speaking - AATW is right.

Undoubtably, but this is not a legal debate.

	05-02-2004 06:02									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Undoubtably, but this is not a legal debate.

My apologies for turning it into one, but in my world, its not so easy to seperate ethics from the rule of law and the real world. I am not a mere sheep however, I just work within the confines of the dreaded system. I personally detest the RIAA and would never help them prosecute their claims, unless I was well paid .

My ethical argument against piracy is that I believe man is worth their work. At the end of someone's life, the only thing they leave behind is their legacy, through descendents and their work. If I value someone's work, no matter what shape it takes, I believe he should be paid for it. In my life, this belief trumps ripping off bastard corporations who collude to drive up prices.

	05-02-2004 06:03									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But that lacks consistency, I'm inevitably drawn to the logical conclusion and not merely a moral one that I shouldn't kill. Of course, this is not an ideal world is it?

Wait, you turned some is-statement into an ought-statement (particularly, one ought not to kill)? Kiss your relativism goodbye

quote: No, the transaction is complete when the exchange of resources is complete. Furthermore, by them selling me the CD, they sell it under the condition, as far as I am aware, that there is no contract, or in a second scenario, the contract is void. After all, why sell it to me??

Look at it this way - you are not bound by the contract in the sense that you will be sent to jail. However, you can be sued for breach of contract (DUH).

quote: No, your point there strengthens my argument.

Wrong - my point is that you aren't even addressing the situation, that is, there is a contractual agreement prohibiting reproduction and distribution. In the absense of that there is no conflict and thus the argument is pointless.

quote: Hypothetical situation of course. But it is true though. I am "vaguely" aware that it exists, but have never read one, and will not read one should someone post it here.

If you know the contract is there, but choose not to read it, it is YOUR fault.

	05-02-2004 06:10									#165
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quote: My ethical argument against piracy is that I believe man is worth their work. At the end of someone's life, the only thing they leave behind is their legacy, through descendents and their work.

Correct, but that is best preserved in the public domain. What is left is their work, not the money that is generated, for that is frittered away by the grandchildren on schemes of of sex and slow suicide...

quote: Wait, you turned some is-statement into an ought-statement (particularly, one ought not to kill)? Kiss your relativism goodbye

Ooops... typo. My opinion of course. I can offer a more logical argument for that than a mere emotional one.

Of course, they're both extensions of the same thing.

quote: Look at it this way - you are not bound by the contract in the sense that you will be sent to jail. However, you can be sued for breach of contract (DUH).

I believe the most appropriate term at this juncture is bleh.

quote: Wrong - my point is that you aren't even addressing the situation, that is, there is a contractual agreement prohibiting reproduction and distribution. In the absense of that there is no conflict and thus the argument is pointless.

Indeed, but of course, what one hand giveth, the other taketh away. Free on the radio but not on CD? Another inconsistency? Perhaps not, one isn't allowed to copy from the radio iirc.

quote: If you know the contract is there, but choose not to read it, it is YOUR fault.

But I am not signing it, I am not acknowledging it, nor am I being told to read it as I buy it. This point is academic though. The contract is irrelevant.

Anyways I'm off to bed. Nite nite chaps!

	05-02-2004 06:14									#166
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quote: Ooops... typo. My opinion of course. I can offer a more logical argument for that than a mere emotional one. Of course, they're both extensions of the same thing.

How? (to both statements)

quote: Indeed, but of course, what one hand giveth, the other taketh away. Free on the radio but not on CD? Another inconsistency? Perhaps not, one isn't allowed to copy from the radio iirc.

If you buy the CD, you have to obey the contract that goes with it (or get sued); if the contract doesn't end up DOING anything, well, that sucks for the company that sold the CD to you.

quote: But I am not signing it, I am not acknowledging it, nor am I being told to read it as I buy it. This point is academic though. The contract is irrelevant.

If you know the contract is there and that it is part of the agreement that allows you to have the CD, then your excuse can't be "but I intentionally didn't read it!"

	05-02-2004 06:19									#167
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Whaleboy, you suck. Seriously, I can back you up when you deny qualitative absolutes... but QUANTITATIVE ones...

OK, you don't suck THAT much, but some of your statements are pissing me off.

I've taken the time to read the whole debate, and it appears Whaleboy and Agathon are defending the idea that information, from an ethical point of view, should be free. Actually, I should say Agathon only- because Whaleboy thinks he can deny the existence of logics and morality because of his 6 credits in Critical theory (again, ).

So, it seems that the problem arising is that of distribution. We have never, yet, found a way to make distribution truly free- even now, bandwidth costs something. And a fact often overlooked is that studio recording is extremely expensive.

From the point some form of distribution is required, given that we live in capitalist societies, some form of compensation is necessary to the distributors. Obviously enough, like it almost always end up with capitalism, these distributors have formed oligopolies which are blatantly abusing their power, both by charging too much and by underpaying the artists.

This abuse, however, does not hide a critical fact: distribution still does have a cost, however free should the information be (I tend to agree with Agathon here).

It has been suggested, in a recent study, that a 6$ per month tax on broadband connections would be sufficient to compensate and make all dowloads of music and movies legal. If the numbers behind it hold any truth, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me, barring any 'profoundly ethical' arguments Agathon is likely to bring up.

	05-02-2004 06:21									#168
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Oncle Boris: the problem is that whether or not information is "property" is irrelevent to this debate, as it's simply a matter of contractual obligation - you don't have to fulfill it in that you'll go to jail otherwise, but you do have to fulfill it in that you'll be sued otherwise. Unless someone has an OBLIGATION to provide you with music, you can't avoid the fact that there's a contract.

	05-02-2004 06:32									#169
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Oncle Boris: the problem is that whether or not information is "property" is irrelevent to this debate, as it's simply a matter of contractual obligation - you don't have to fulfill it in that you'll go to jail otherwise, but you do have to fulfill it in that you'll be sued otherwise. Unless someone has an OBLIGATION to provide you with music, you can't avoid the fact that there's a contract.

I believe this debate to be ethical in the first place- so, the true question should be: "does anyone has the right to force such contracts to end users, when they are producing such critically important things as 'cultural products'? Can the free flow of information and culture be restricted from the usual conception of business rights?"

I don't claim that I have a definite, absolute answer for this. However, I was suggesting that the 6$ per month tax looked like a promising idea.

	05-02-2004 06:40									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I don't claim that I have a definite, absolute answer for this.

A shocking admission here at apolyton.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris However, I was suggesting that the 6$ per month tax looked like a promising idea.

sounds intriguing, I would wonder how to equitably divy up the proceeds to artists etc. I don't like the idea of giving everybody the same amount, some groups are just more popular than others. not to mention what to do about royalties. how long would you pay the artist out of the fund? I much prefer the 99 cent download cost per song or something similar, seems more equitable.

	05-02-2004 06:44									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It has been suggested, in a recent study, that a 6$ per month tax on broadband connections would be sufficient to compensate and make all dowloads of music and movies legal. If the numbers behind it hold any truth, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me, barring any 'profoundly ethical' arguments Agathon is likely to bring up.

I would consider this to be an illegitimate rent paid to a dying industry. Why subsidize an industry for which there is no need?

I said that information by its very nature resists being made into property. Nevertheless, there are those people who want to make some into property to suit themselves. Their means of doing so threatens to morph into a totalitarian control over the distribution of information or at least a severe curtailing of the rights we currently enjoy.

	05-02-2004 06:50									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I would consider this to be an illegitimate rent paid to a dying industry. Why subsidize an industry for which there is no need? I said that information by its very nature resists being made into property. Nevertheless, there are those people who want to make some into property to suit themselves. Their means of doing so threatens to morph into a totalitarian control over the distribution of information or at least a severe curtailing of the rights we currently enjoy.

I could agree with you, if only you come up with an answer to this problem: who's gonna pay for the distribution?

Even if intellectual property was 0$, we would need to pay for the bandwidth, the book, the CD, etc.

	05-02-2004 06:55									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I could agree with you, if only you come up with an answer to this problem: who's gonna pay for the distribution? Even if intellectual property was 0$, we would need to pay for the bandwidth, the book, the CD, etc.

We already pay for that. Don't you pay for your internet connection?

	05-02-2004 08:22									#174
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Whaleboy,

quote: Firstly, stealing means that you are taking the resources of another for yourself, and they are losing because of it. So in other words, you are directly depleting their finite resources. However, in terms of digital information, text, music, movies, images and the like, this is a resource that is for all intents and purposes infinite, the only expense being hard disk space, processor time, memory and bandwidth etc.

One can always argue that piracy depletes the financial resources of the owner(s) of said works and objects.

quote: ...since the record company in the first place puts the information into the public domain...

AFAIK, copyrighted material is definitely not public domain. This kils your third point as well.

	05-02-2004 08:27									#175
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So it's OK to steal money from rich people's bank accounts, but not poor people's?

Who do you think Robin Hood was?

	05-02-2004 08:36									#176
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You however are only a licensee of the contents. And contracts don't need to be signed to be enforceable, by using the contents of the cd, you are consenting to be bound to the license.

IANAL, but a contract where one side has no say in is extremely likely to be not enforceable.

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Why are you the arbiter of "adequate compenation"? Who are you to determine another's value (beyond your own economic investment that is)? Isn't that for the free market to determine?

Uh, free market is not some sort of imaginary place in the astral plane that dishes out prices. A free market is composed of the people in them. It's the will of the buyers and sellers that sets the price. However this is just the lesser of your errors. Markets for copyrighted materials are not free markets.

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel But artists aren't being compensated when people illegally download their music.

Most of the money goes to the middleman.

	05-02-2004 08:39									#177
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker You still have complete freedom of information! However, you agree to waive that freedom (with respect to the particular song or game) when you purchase the CD. If you don't agree, don't buy the CD!

No you don't. Do you sign a contract before you buy the CD, with all the terms detailed and agreed to by both parties?

	05-02-2004 08:46									#178
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel actually, you have. By picking it up and using it, you have become a licensee and are subject to any licensee agreements.

No you don't. Suppose I place a large pile of bricks in front of your door. By clearing the bricks, you agree to owe me a billion dollars. You see how ridiculous your assertion is, no?

	05-02-2004 08:50									#179
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Unless the copying was considered "hacking".

What is "hacking" and why is it illegal?

	05-02-2004 08:50									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger IANAL, but a contract where one side has no say in is extremely likely to be not enforceable.

you would be incorrect. well, the first phrase you are correct . On what other grounds do you think the RIAA is suing people?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Uh, free market is not some sort of imaginary place in the astral plane that dishes out prices. A free market is composed of the people in them. It's the will of the buyers and sellers that sets the price. However this is just the lesser of your errors. Markets for copyrighted materials are not free markets.

unfortunately your error is to show up at the party six hours late, but I suppose that's par for the course. And you are quoting me out of context. I was responding to this quote by sava :

quote: Originally posted by Sava Acquiring media for free without compensation to the artist, in general, is immoral... but only in context. If we're talking about a starving artist, that's one thing... but to hear *******s like Metallica whining about their excess wealth is sickening. They already have adequate compensation for their work.

I was responding to Sava's remarks that Metallica was already adequately compensated. I was using you in the second person singular, not plural. Comprende? I thought that it was obvious I was referring to his particular impact on the free market by including the phrase "beyond your own economic investment"