05-02-2004 21:20									#181
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Look, 5 or 6 people have alreayd made that point patently clear- if he hasn;t accepted it up to now, what is the logic that further battering on the door will open it?

	05-02-2004 21:32									#182
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Cause we have nothing else to do at the moment?

	05-02-2004 21:34									#183
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Question and answer

	05-02-2004 21:59									#184
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Cause we have nothing else to do at the moment?

Work perhaps? looking for work? Playing games? Whoopie? nothing else at ALL?

MrFun*

*not hainvg fun right now

	05-02-2004 22:03									#185
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Work? Oh, yeah!

MrFun*

*GePap's fetish of the moment

	05-02-2004 22:07									#186
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Work perhaps? looking for work? Playing games? Whoopie? nothing else at ALL? MrFun* *not hainvg fun right now

Well, I am at work in my internship right now, but we only got one patron request for genealogy documents so far, and I got that done.

I suppose I COULD do busy-body work by entering more data from a hard-copy county jail registry into the electronic database, but I'm saving that boredom for after my lunch break.

	05-02-2004 22:32									#187
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I wonder, if a woman Ben is close to came to him after being badly beaten and raped, talked out the situation with him confidentiality, then decided despite Ben's best advice, that she wanted to get the morning-after-pill, would he drive her to the doctor's and pharmacy, or would he basically tell her to get lost?

It'd be nice if you could answer that Ben Kenobi, I'd just like to know if you're really human after all.

	05-02-2004 22:47									#188
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I don't think the thread was established with the intention of debating such a moral stance, but whether or not such a stance should be allowed in the course of a pharmacist's work.

	05-02-2004 22:54									#189
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Oh geez, you mean I'm going out of the thread's remit? I'm questioning something that hasn't been debated about for 80 posts already? Dear oh dear, this is clearly unacceptable!

	06-02-2004 12:12									#190
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm going to take this as a tasteless joke, rather than it being your true sentiments.

good idea . tasteless jokes are my specialty.

	06-02-2004 15:02									#191
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This pharmacist is total cretin, and should have his licence revoked ASAP.

He isn't employed to moralise, he is employed to provide medication.

Another example of human flawed religionism and it's arrogance.

	06-02-2004 16:13									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's not the issue here. The issue is that his religion strictly prohibits him from prescribing the morning after pill because they teach that human life begins at conception. Now, you've admitted that the pill prevents implantation, therefore, by scientific evidence, dispensing the pill violates his beliefs. It's not just the employee's speculation. It's his faith and his beliefs. Would you consider all of his faith to be nothing more than speculation? I fail to see why the store cannot accomodate his beliefs, considering that he is a pharmacist, and his job is not unduly affected by the refusal to dispense the morning after pill. So all Catholics, who up until now have practiced as pharmacists, should quit their job?

I think a society should be based on some predictibility, such as, if I go to a grocery and I have the money, I can buy apples, or, if I have a prescription from a doctor and I go to a pharmacy I can get the medication. That simple. I should have the luxury of not trying to second-guess any pharmacist's religious beliefs.

Law should not sanction the inclusion of religious beliefs, hence religion, into any such transaction. If we allow the pharmacist to be the judge of anybody's life ("Rape? Dunno. I think life starts at conception, I think she'll a take a life if I sell this pill, ergo I shouldnt give it to her"), what's next? If the next pharmacist is a Hindu, should he be allowed to not give me drugs with chemicals derived from say, a cow?

I respect people's devotion to or rejection of religion, but I also think turning basic human interaction into self-righteous trials of conscience is horribly wrong. The conundrum here is, no strong believer would concede that his ultimate truths in fact can be subjective, and the point won't get through, for I'm inherently wrong because I don't agree with the idea that I'll be taking a life if I sell that pill. Hence, he'll demand exception and rights to be able to make that exception.

	06-02-2004 16:29									#193
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I discussed this briefly with my girlfriend, who happens to be both a pharmacist and an attorney.

Obviously contrary to Gepap's opinion this man broke no laws in refusing to sell this woman this prescription.

A more interesting question is whether he is violating his professional standards (as decided by the state licensing authority), and again in all probability he is clear there as well. Apparently there are numerous cases of pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control etc., and as this issue in the vast majority of cases has no life-threatening aspect (ie one can always go somewhere else and buy the product), he again appears to be in the clear. Had he been a hospital (rather than retail) pharmacist and refused to fill a prescription the lack of which would potentially have a negative impact on the health of the patient, then he would be in some potential trouble in regard to his license.

Where he is in trouble immediately is with his employer, which has a reasonable expectation that its employees will take any lawful and ethical opportunity to sell the products it carries. His beef is with his employer, and he should have had the guts to tell them upfront that he was going to refuse to fill prescriptions of whatever type. Instead he decided to take an opportunity to make some headlines. I'd fire his ass in a heartbeat.

	06-02-2004 17:45									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So all Catholics, who up until now have practiced as pharmacists, should quit their job?

And should all Pacifists, who joined the army and refuse to go to war, quit their job as well? Damn, what a blatant violation of their civil rights! A Pacifist has the same right to serve in the army as any other person and shouldn't be forced to go to war against his belief.

Seriously, that guy has to be fired instantly and without any compensation. Additionally, he should be blacklisted, as should all Catholic fundamentalists who deny medical help to people in need. And a few slaps in his face by that woman would've been justified as well.

	06-02-2004 18:39									#195
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Seems like the Catholics have too much time on their hands. Maybe a second Inquisition would keep them occupied?

[/badtroll]

	06-02-2004 18:50									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Seems like the Catholics have too much time on their hands. Maybe a second Inquisition would keep them occupied?

You're right. It's time to weed out the catholics.

	06-02-2004 19:55									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I discussed this briefly with my girlfriend, who happens to be both a pharmacist and an attorney. Obviously contrary to Gepap's opinion this man broke no laws in refusing to sell this woman this prescription.

Thanks for the love

quote: Where he is in trouble immediately is with his employer, which has a reasonable expectation that its employees will take any lawful and ethical opportunity to sell the products it carries. His beef is with his employer, and he should have had the guts to tell them upfront that he was going to refuse to fill prescriptions of whatever type. Instead he decided to take an opportunity to make some headlines. I'd fire his ass in a heartbeat.

The guy should be glad he got a repirmand instead of a pink slip.

	06-02-2004 20:20									#198
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Sik,

Interesting,

To what extent is the employer liable, if any, for failure to dispense meds that are prescribed?

Og

	06-02-2004 21:46									#199
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Probably to no extent, as they could blame it onto the Employee or his superior

	06-02-2004 23:29									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Seems like the Catholics have too much time on their hands. Maybe a second Inquisition would keep them occupied? [/badtroll]

yes -- that was a bad troll

	07-02-2004 02:06									#201
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quote: I wonder, if a woman Ben is close to came to him after being badly beaten and raped, talked out the situation with him confidentiality, then decided despite Ben's best advice, that she wanted to get the morning-after-pill, would he drive her to the doctor's and pharmacy, or would he basically tell her to get lost?

Well, you can put my girlfriend into that sitaution. She would not need to drive since there is a 'rape relief' centre on campus. The sad irony would be that she has been vehemently opposed to that clinic, and we managed to get an opt-out clause on our student fees.

I would not take her there, I would not go with her. However, I would not tell her to go away, mostly because I love her and I wouldn't know what to do without her.

quote: It'd be nice if you could answer that Ben Kenobi, I'd just like to know if you're really human after all.

Gibsie: Would you be surpirsed to know that I have lost friends and had relatives no longer speak to me for publicly being prolife? I've been on the receiving end, and I find my real friends now are much more forgiving.

	07-02-2004 02:17									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I don't think I've read a thread that's so filled me with contempt in a long while.

You obviously haven't visited many threads lately

Oh it's a joke. He's a pharmacist, he's not there to make moral judgements. And if he considers distributing these pills so immoral, how come he hasn't objected before?

	07-02-2004 03:22									#203
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unlike ben, i would see no other choice than to go with her.

as morally opposed to it i may be, the simple fact that she would need me to be there, if only for support, means that i ought to be there for her.

	07-02-2004 03:26									#204
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reading back on some of this thread...

imho: it's good if you have religious conviction. but when you go to work, check them at the door. if you cannot fill the prescription given to you, let someone else do it, and don't drive the customer away.

	07-02-2004 04:45									#205
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quote: Well, you can put my girlfriend into that sitaution. She would not need to drive since there is a 'rape relief' centre on campus. The sad irony would be that she has been vehemently opposed to that clinic, and we managed to get an opt-out clause on our student fees.

I assume a 'rape relief' centre is somewhere that provide advices, someone to talk to etc (that's what it was at my University) so i'm curious as to why you think you shouldn't contribute to that ? I don't see any contradiction/conflict with your faith here ?

	07-02-2004 05:49									#206
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quote: as morally opposed to it i may be, the simple fact that she would need me to be there, if only for support, means that i ought to be there for her.

Any assistance I provide implies agreement with her action.

Consider this. I would marry her in this situation, and offer to take care of her, even if it meant that I would not be able to go to school. That's the offer I'd be giving, that she would have to refuse. I would have already offered my unconditional support to help her take care of the child.

If she rejects this offer, then I'm sorry, but it's her decision, and she has to walk that path alone. I will forgive her because I love her, but the decision is hers.

quote: assume a 'rape relief' centre is somewhere that provide advices, someone to talk to etc (that's what it was at my University) so i'm curious as to why you think you shouldn't contribute to that ?

We fought against the provision of the morning after pill, not the rape relief centre, for the precise reasons you mention. We had no problem with providing counselling for these women, but we could not support the dispensation of the morning after pill.

After the referendum went through, and we lost our proposal to amend, we insisted upon an opt out clause so that we would not be coerced as students to support the rape relief centre.

I don't see any contradiction/conflict with your faith here ?

	07-02-2004 05:59									#207
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OK, i get you - the 'morning after pill' didn't really exist when i was at Uni so i didn't make the connection.

Don't you think though that by not supporting one aspect you're denying a valuable resource as a whole to many people ? I occasionally didn't agree with many things my Student's Union did but i wouldn't want to jeopardise services i might 90% agree with by not funding them ?

	07-02-2004 08:06									#208
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Consider our perspective. Our money, some of it, would go towards killing people without an opt-out clause. Regardless of whether or not we opted out the rape relief centre would go ahead, so the only real issue is one of personal morality.

Of course, if a significant number of people opted out for this reason, the rape relief centre would have to pull the morning after pill, and just provide counselling and other services to help the woman.

	07-02-2004 08:09									#209
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quote: if you cannot fill the prescription given to you, let someone else do it, and don't drive the customer away.

And for some reason, this accomodation attracts tons of fire from everybody else.

	07-02-2004 08:14									#210
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quote: Since epilepsy is still less understood than many diseases, even today it remains more mysterious as less well understood for the general populace.

Mordoch:

True, but it still fails for the same reason as the claim that one's religion only allows them to work a 4 day week. Religious freedom does not need to accomodate the hypothetical, but rather the actual beliefs.