17-02-2004 22:49									#31
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Between everything they've tried to pull - and whined about when we didn't let them - GWT is clearly a pestilent to this game.

	17-02-2004 23:52									#32
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a very big and powerful pestilent....

	18-02-2004 03:41									#33
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Quite typical that our in-game enemies are also the "pestilents" on this game. If CFC backstabs us they'll become a pestilent too.

I see nothing in Apolyton's behaviour that makes us better (or worse) than any other team out there. Given the right circumstances, we're willing to stoop down to any level. We too easily justfiy what the "right circumstances" are for us, and look down on other teams for doing the same.

Sorry if this is not constructive.


Dominae

	18-02-2004 03:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Quite typical that our in-game enemies are also the "pestilents" on this game. If CFC backstabs us they'll become a pestilent too. I see nothing in Apolyton's behaviour that makes us better (or worse) than any other team out there. Given the right circumstances, we're willing to stoop down to any level. We too easily justfiy what the "right circumstances" are for us, and look down on other teams for doing the same. Dominae

There is a difference.

Why I voted to assist in the teleport, was to highlight the problems with allowing such exploits.
Had it not been used before, coupled with using war weariness against us, then I doubt we would of got the enough votes to approve the action.

***-for-Tat....Yes

But has been worth it to try, and clean up the game and put a little more sportmanship into it.

	18-02-2004 03:55									#35
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Dom, actually your constant questioning of the morality on some of our actions makes us question even more whether what we did was right or wrong. I for one understand your reasoning quite well and for the most part, agree on it.

In the absolutist sense, yes, what we did was wrong and we are no better than GWT or GCA at least on the teleporting issue alone. However, I also understand that mongoose made a favorable ruling on the issue and we have no reason to limit ourselves when the can of worms was legitimately opened.

The problem is that the can sh ouldn't have been opened in the first place. But it's too late to change that, unfortunately.

Thus, in the relative sense, I do consider we are a bit on top of GWT and GCA. First of all, we have never proposed an exploit be legalized and have never done anything that anyone hasn't done before, and hopefully never will. At least rest assured that I'll always oppose it like I've always opposed any instances of exploitish behaviour like the galley forting and the mass upgrading with no movement points left move.

We are here to win the game. At all costs. At all legal costs. Some things might have been morally wrong but if they have been allowed by the admin then I see no reason not to do it if our probabilities of winning this game can be very well at stake.

I hope this has made sense, at least it's a feeble attempt on my part to make up some kind of justification for what we, as a team, decided on doing.

-MZ

	18-02-2004 04:20									#36
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Thanks for your reply, MZ. I do understand the reasoning behind our recent in-game actions.

What bothers me is us painting GWT, CDG and yes even GCA as criminals at our convenience. Here's a news flash: they're not so different from us. Especially with respect to GWT's recent complaint, I see a lot of similarities between APO and the other teams on the metagame stage.

I cannot condone us being bad sports because "they deserve it". When you play a game and come to the realization that your opponent is actually your enemy, you should probably stop playing. Patting ourselves on the back when we insult them and laughing when they get shafted by mongoose's stupid rulings is not exactly sportsmanlike.


Dominae

	18-02-2004 04:45									#37
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I would like to point out...

If we get an agreement from teams to ban unit warping. Then there is no way GCA can hurt us with their little galley in the lake.

One of our biggest concerns, was that they had a settler on it, and would try to resettle on our continent, and warp their entire army over.

With warping banned, they can no longer do it.

So...instead of killing the galley, and then waiting 5 more turns for peace and the end of our war weariness, (And give Lucky 5 more turns to find some other way to abuse the situation), why dont we ignore it and end our war weariness in a couple of turns?

	18-02-2004 06:56									#38
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Because, it still has the Spearman on it. They can land it at anytime and start trouble.

	18-02-2004 20:37									#39
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H_E,

The Consuls actually had a discussion about doing just that last night. Especially with us replaying the previous several turns, it is possible (and even advisable) for us to just allow the galley to float around for the remainder of the 5-turn period, then demand peace.

My understanding of how WW works is that once GCA has given us peace even ONCE, we can then re-declare war on them without our WW jumping up to an insane level or we can simply block all of the LZ's and make it so that if they land, they have to ATTACK with a spearmen and grant us negative WW.

Otherwise, we let their galley rot.

We can always then take out the galley and spearmen once we have some negative WW around, probably if we end up receiving a GWT city (us causing GWT WW is still legal until we make sure it becomes illegal).

A lot is going to depend on what agreement can be reached about WW.

	21-02-2004 20:53									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Trip It was agreed to in chat.

I'm not comfortable with these things being agreed upon in chat. We can see decisions like this coming, and we have a Forum in which everyone can participate to make decisions and give opinions.

	21-02-2004 21:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I'm not comfortable with these things being agreed upon in chat. We can see decisions like this coming, and we have a Forum in which everyone can participate to make decisions and give opinions.

Maybe I'm crazy but it seems to me like quite a few major decisions are made in chats rather than in the forum, which to me is the biggest drawback of this game verses the ptwdg, where GS does everything in the forum.

	22-02-2004 05:24									#42
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This was one of the things the NYE didn't like alot (and he still keep it going), was that too many things were being discussed in chat and not posted about in the forums.

You also have to realize, the discussions would (mosttimes) go up to the point of when the person has to go to bed or work or something else. So, they would say that they would post about it the next day. Sometimes they would and sometimes they wouldn't. One of the problems with that is that there is a delay from when something is talked about in chat to when the discussion would start in the forums.

And then, when you get a few people who look at the item and say it sounds good and whatnot, then it's basically has been rubber stamped.

This is also the reason that we (the people who are in chat alot), need to do something about it. I have tried the A-cubed route, to see if we can get someone to help with this little thing.

Or maybe, we should have our online discussions and when the chat starts to get to the point of spam,. then we go and post about what was discussed, instead of continuing to spam..

It's something that is kind of broken and needs to get fixed, but we really don't know how to go about it...

E_T

	22-02-2004 06:45									#43
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quote: Tripoli - Great Wall built, started building Market.

Whoa! Was this the plan all along? Am I really that out of it? Why no celebration for the completion of our first Wonder?

However...

Now that we're (probably) going to replay the turns leading up to this, perhaps it will be useful to argue that building the Great Wall is not really a good idea.

The only reason we're building this half-rate Wonder is to trigger our GA. And the only reason we decided to trigger it this way is that we had "moral" objections to asking CFC to sacrfice a unit to one of our Numidian Mercenaries.

It seems to me like the situation is changed now. Practically everyone on the team is now accepting the fact that we need to make some sacrifices to win this game, and this includes using what we consider to be exploits (it would be all too easy to dig up some posts from Consuls to this effect). I personally believe that we should bring this up at the UN, and let that forum decide if friendly GA-triggering is permissible or not.

Given the recent "It benefits us, so let's do it!" attitude of the Consuls in the past few weeks (I'm passing no judgement here, not to worry), I'm expecting at least a rethinking of our policy here. The Great Wall is a big waste of 200 Shields.


Dominae

	22-02-2004 06:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Whoa! Was this the plan all along? Am I really that out of it? Why no celebration for the completion of our first Wonder? However... Now that we're (probably) going to replay the turns leading up to this, perhaps it will be useful to argue that building the Great Wall is not really a good idea. The only reason we're building this half-rate Wonder is to trigger our GA. And the only reason we decided to trigger it this way is that we had "moral" objections to asking CFC to sacrfice a unit to one of our Numidian Mercenaries. It seems to me like the situation is changed now. Practically everyone on the team is now accepting the fact that we need to make some sacrifices to win this game, and this includes using what we consider to be exploits (it would be all too easy to dig up some posts from Consuls to this effect). I personally believe that we should bring this up at the UN, and let that forum decide if friendly GA-triggering is permissible or not. Given the recent "It benefits us, so let's do it!" attitude of the Consuls in the past few weeks (I'm passing no judgement here, not to worry), I'm expecting at least a rethinking of our policy here. The Great Wall is a big waste of 200 Shields. Dominae

I remain mystified by your ability to miss the entire point.

1. The plan to use Tripoli to finish the Great Wall is not new and it happened when we played through the turns the first time.

2. Just because we used one exploit that was APPROVED BY MONGOOSE OVER OUR OBJECTIONS for the explicit purpose of bringing the exploits issue to a head so that GWT/GCA would finally come to the negotiating table (albeit kicking and screaming) does not mean that this team suddenly is ok with using any exploit in the book under any circumstances. We only used the unit warping as a course of last resort to end the WW and unit warping exploits being used against us. We're not going to now get into the habit of STARTING the use of blatant exploits simply for the hell of it. This team has voted MORE THAN ONCE that it feels using an ally to start a Golden Age is an exploit that this team refuses to use and that has settled the matter... we're not re-opening it.

3. If Apolyton were suddenly going to start coming up with all sorts of exploitive tactics and using them, it would completely destroy the tentative agreement that seems to exist at the U.N. to refrain from the use of exploits where possible. We have the shields to build wonders for our GA... we have no need to use an exploit to do it instead.

	22-02-2004 07:04									#45
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I guess "the point" that I'm missing is how you and the others (that's not meant to sound bad) justify your use of exploits in each different situation.

The unit-teleport was not used to prove a point, it was used to save CGN. I was there in chat when you were discussing it. Please be honest about this.

If the team does not think we should trigger our GA with CFC, fine. But IMO we should not make this decision until after the UN makes its verdict. If all the other teams say that it's okay, you can be sure the poll results within our team would be different.

In this case, there's no harm in asking.


Dominae

	22-02-2004 07:30									#46
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Anyone notice that as of this turn CGN is 6 points away from double our Score? I thought that was pretty funny...

Then I looked at where mongoose put them and almost cried.


Dominae

	22-02-2004 07:42									#47
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err..., yeah Arne, to be honest we did it to help CGN, not to prove our point. The "prove our point" excuse is for the UN only

	22-02-2004 08:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The unit-teleport was not used to prove a point, it was used to save CGN. I was there in chat when you were discussing it. Please be honest about this.

The reason the unit warp was used was that it was absolutely necessary to save CGN because CGN had been planning to use it and discarded all of their other options.

If CGN hadn't been planning to use unit warping and discarded every other option they HAD, we wouldn' have been stuck using it to save them, yes.

Thing is, even if we hadn't done it, CFC would have... both CGN and CFC have said this. Could we have let that happen? Sure! But what, really, would have been the point?