05-02-2004 02:36									#1
	Any unknown CRPGs worthwhile? Got spare money?

The RPG is my favorite genre of computer games, but I think I've mined what is available dry. At least the quality CRPGs with a semblance of story and char-dev; the rest out there, I dread, is merely the slush pile. I'm a tad picky, admittedly.

I've played the old Bioware/Black Isle CRPG legacy to death: BG1, BG2, FO1, FO2, IWD1, IWD2, PS:T, Arcanum. I feel these were the creme ala creme of the genre.

I was burned by Ultima: IX, found Betrayal at Antara to be a pixelated wasteland, found Daggerfall and Co. to be a non-linear, homogenous wasteland, and read atrocious things about Return to Krondor, Descent to Undermountain, Neverwinter Nights, Pool of Radiance 2, and Temple of Elemental Evil which kept me at bay. I've never been a fan of the Final Fantasy series.

The only CRPGs I know little about which might have been worthwhile sleepers are The Summoner and Wizardry 8 (any good?).

I think the CRPG, in the traditional single-player sense (I won't touch Diablo-style dross or MMORPGs with a ten-foot pole), is a rapidly dying genre. With the continuing dominance of consoles over the old PC format, developers and gaming companies going bankrupt, and stockholders/upper-management bigwigs generally taking less risk and relying more on cash-cow names (I'm finding sequel-itis everywhere on the shelves), creative gambits like Arcanum and Fallout seem to have disappeared. I can't even think of any upcoming CRPGs in the works that I'm interested in.

What's left to play? And is the CRPG going to end up the domain of a few dedicated cult modders tinkering with existing engines (Forgotten Wars Projects, uploaded Arcanum/Fallout modules, etc.) whilst the rest of the gaming world passes them (and us) by?

	05-02-2004 05:09									#2
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You've got to give NWN a try. There's no other RPG not on your list from Bioware

Ummm, unknown games...

The Avernum games are good. Funny GURPS-based rules, and you need food, but good stuff.

Or just see what the canines below have to offer?

-Jam

	05-02-2004 09:03									#3
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I'll take this as a "yes" to my question then...

Thanks for the tip Jamski. GURPS isn't so bad, especially since in the embroyonic stages of Fallout's development the designers were initially going to use the GURPS ruleset.

Nice to see your Planescape Torment-ing has rubbed off in your Avatar title, Jamski.

	05-02-2004 09:36									#4
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Wizardry 6-8 are excellent. I don't know if they come out with a compilation but they are worth getting. The graphics of Bane of the Cosmic Forge and Crusaders of the Dark Savant are outdated, but the stories are absorbing and the worlds are huge.

I don't know anything about Summoner, but a very old DOS based CRPG (published by SSI) called The Summoning is also good.

	05-02-2004 10:21									#5
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Well it ain't unknown, but have you tried KOTOR? It really is very good in story and character development.

	05-02-2004 11:00									#6
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Temple is weak, dude .

	05-02-2004 12:23									#7
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Arx Fatalis is supposed to be real good. Although there are a few complaints about the interface, the game looks great, has a great non-linear world and quests. I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but I do plan on playing this at some point.

review: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/arxfatalis/review.html

what about gothic II? is that a rpg? I really don't know much about it, but I have heard some good things from it.

Last edited by Dis on 05-02-2004 at 12:41

	05-02-2004 13:03									#8
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Gothic 2 has a fantastic story and atmosphere, spoilt by VERY clumsy combat. If you're good at Quake or Doom or some other shooty clicky rubbish then you can cope with the fighting in Gothic 2, its of a similar low standard.

-Jam

	05-02-2004 21:40									#9
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Wizardry 8 is good if you persevere (the start is a bit dull.)

I'd also say ToEE is worth a budget purchase too if you play it with the patch and the Co8 fan fixes.

	05-02-2004 23:41									#10
	Got spare money?

Try www.swcombine.com for a free RPG type game set in the Star Wars universe!

	06-02-2004 00:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski The Avernum games are good.

I played those games back when they were known as Exile. You could play for many hours on the demo version, and the purchase price was reasonable. The Exile games were somewhat lacking in graphics and had a few UI quirks, but had tons of NPC dialog, lots of subquests, and were obviously a labor of love.

	06-02-2004 00:44									#12
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Gothic II is great, and once you get used to the combat it's no issue at all.

Wizardry 8 is also fantastic, the voice acting is wonderful, etc. But I was too much of a lazy slob to finish it. Oops.

Summoner is good, mostly because of the story, but in all fairness it's not the best. Good to take up 20-40 hours.

Anachronox! It's more console-styled, but it's got some of the best writing I've seen in a long time, not to mention the coolest one-liner in all of existance at the end.

All four worth playing, for sure.

	06-02-2004 02:36									#13
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Its well worth the $10 to play Avernum 3 though to the end. You can play the first quarter for free - the rest costs a little bit.

The dogs below have a link to the Avernum website if you are interested. I think you can play Exile for free now, not sure. Its a bit lumpy though (600x420)

-Jam

	06-02-2004 08:48									#14
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I tried the Avernum demo out. Alas, Avernum is a bit dated for my eyes; its quality of graphics hail from roughly 15 years ago, on par with Ultima VI. I've been spoiled by the isometric backgrounds and sprites of the IE games. There's really no chance of Avernum pulling me in unfortunately--if it was at least as graphically good as Ultima VII or Betrayal Krondor then it wouldn't be a problem, otherwise it can't feel "immersive."

I dug up a bit of info on Anachronox and it sounds intriguing. I had a blast with The Longest Journey and so I'll probably like this.

A lot of people swear by Wizardry 8 but I'm rather combat fatigued after IWDII and don't need boatloads of it to keep me enthralled anymore.

Arx Fatalis sounds similar to Avernum's "Underworld" premise and its easier on the eyes; it'll be worth checking out. I actually fondly remember playing Ultima Underworld I/II w-a-a-a-y back in the day.

So it looks like Anachronox and Arx Fatalis are my best bets, until that dedicated Fallout buff out there mods the unofficial Fallout 3 from the bowels of the editor.

	06-02-2004 10:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Wizardry 8 is good if you persevere (the start is a bit dull.)

Best way to start is to begin with Wizardry 6 - Bane of the Cosmic Forge, progress through Crusader of the Dark Savant, and finally end with the new one. The best trilogy ever.

	06-02-2004 17:30									#16
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How about a new game of BG2 with every single compatable mod installed? I can give you links if you like. Its a totally different game.

-Jam

	06-02-2004 23:52									#17
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Ah, yes, how could I forget Arx Fatalis? Also a very good game, though the Journal is a bit lacking. If you have a good memory for quests, though, you'll do just fine.

	07-02-2004 00:02									#18
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Pokemon. Definately. Yah.

	07-02-2004 02:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski How about a new game of BG2 with every single compatable mod installed? I can give you links if you like. Its a totally different game. -Jam

I used to be a real BG2 nut back in the day. Before we even knew of such things as Kevin Dorner fixpacks and Weidu 3rd-party mods, people still speculated on the true nature of the Pantaloons, and Kelsey was just a glint in jcompton's eye. The old interplay and black isle boards were lively, opinionated throngs filled with entertaining alter egos. Karzak and Gromnir were still active in their mischief, and Kevin Dorner regularly spoke to fans.

I sort of ODed on BG2 when it was first released, going through the entire game wholesale something like six times with different characters and obsessively playing out romances. Now I'm entirely burnt out on BG2 and there's no mod that can restore that. I know because I tried...but even with all the new mods, enchancements, and other bells and whilstles it's very much the same game, and I was merely going through the motions, too familiar and too rote every quest and dialogue was to me (I never even made it to Spellhold from the ennui ).

However, I have new-to-me used RPGs coming in the mail, thanks to the suggestions in this thread.

	07-02-2004 02:52									#20
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How about one of the BG2 total conversion mods? There's one set in Dragonlance that looks good...

-Jam

	07-02-2004 03:16									#21
	Tired of ads?

Wasteland?

Shadowrun on the SNES (IIRC)?

	07-02-2004 08:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by CapitanGarlic Ah, yes, how could I forget Arx Fatalis? Also a very good game, though the Journal is a bit lacking. If you have a good memory for quests, though, you'll do just fine.

Whatzat?

	07-02-2004 23:40									#23
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If you don't mind a bit out-dated graphics and Sci-Fi setting, a very good game is Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters. It's free, has over a hundred stars, over 12 very distinct races, and a very fun (though not very realistic) battle system. You can download it here , there is a lot of information about it on this forum , and a general site including many hints, tips, and unfortunately spoilers.

~EternalSpearman~

	17-02-2004 05:20									#24
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I saw you didn't like the Final Fantasy series, but you should really try FF7 and FF9, my two fav. RPG of all time. Actually my fav games in all genres (incl. civ). Civ2 is very high on the list also tho.

If you play one of these you will BECOME a fan of the series I'm sure (almost)

	17-02-2004 06:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Wasteland?

"Wasteland" was brutally hard, IIRC.

I guess by modern standards most of those old games were.

I believe they're remaking "Wasteland". Can't remember where I read/heard it.

[ok]

	17-02-2004 06:44									#26
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Or go with the only truly great Final Fantasy, III

	17-02-2004 12:38									#27
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quote: Originally posted by EternalSpearman If you don't mind a bit out-dated graphics and Sci-Fi setting, a very good game is Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

The original Star Control II was more of an adventure game though. So I expect this one to be the same.

	17-02-2004 15:18									#28
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I'm playing Soulbringer now. The movement system needs getting used to but its lots of fun.

	17-02-2004 20:39									#29
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Urban Ranger: Oh, the Ur-Quan Masters is just a subtitle. It really is just Star Control II. There was no expansion pack, only a very dissapointing sequel to Star Control II (Star Control III).

Yes, I suppose SC2 (Star Control 2) is more adventure game-like than RPG, but I think it is still, in my opinion, a RPG.

	17-02-2004 21:07									#30
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Ah, I see.

I like the song remixing efforts, though. Very nice touch