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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Tripledoc, some would say that the Roman Army control of society caused the decline. |
I agree. Tin-pot regimes are definately to be avoided.
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Tripledoc
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Then why don't the Capitalists give medals to workers?
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
In my opinion, that would be the accountable managers. A democratic company doesn't get rid of the management (much like a democratic country doesn't get rid of the government), but it makes the management accountable.
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Second, can the decisions of the workers be overridden? What if they decide to just play Civ all day? |
No. Just like the decisions of a Parliament shouldn't be overriden.
But in my model, the workers don't take each and every decision. WRT the company as a whole, they voice their opinion on most important issues, and they give orientations to the management. OTOH, workers should have a high say within their own department, wrt work conditions, efficiency of work, etc. |
Shouldn't or can't? Surely some branch of government elected by the people is able to override the decisions of the workers - otherwise the workers are in complete control of the country, and can do whatever they want.
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Third, should the military be similarly democratic? |
I don't think so. The military, unlike any other institution, is all about immediate survival, and maximal efficiency simply in order not to get gutted.
However, much say should be given regarding the working conditions, individual demands from the soldiers should be accepted if possible, and we can imagine some extent of democracy in calmer missions. |
 , though that leeway would have to be allowed by the commanders, not encoded in the law (it would be too difficult to legislate what was a "calmer mission").
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Finally, in light of the third question, since the military is an organization that serves the state (and through it, the people), and since all of those other companies are organizations that serve the state (and people), why should the military have any different rules from the rest of them? Why should the rest of the companies have any different rules than the military? (Oh, and how would emergency services like firefighters and policement work, if there were different rules for companies and the military - like the military or like a company?) |
Very few companies or public services are in the business of killing or being killed. Only the police is comparable to the military in this regard (and I don't think the police should be entirely democratic as well). Firefighters, like any other public service, should have clear objectives given by the State, but the firefighters should have as much leeway as possible in organizing themselves to reach these objectives. |
I understand that they have leeway - my question is, is this leeway mandated by the constitution or allowed by the government? It seems to me that the company, because it is serving the people, would have to be accountable to them, otherwise it could do whatever the hell it wanted (even if it was given "objectives").
My point with all of this is that a top-down hierarchy is necessary in any organization that serves more than itself, so that it is accountable to more than itself. The President gives orders and they are carried out by the people below him, because the President is elected and they are not.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
They do better than that.
They give a unequalled standard of living.
Where would prefer to get live-saving medical treatment?
It wouldn't be Cuba I bet! |
The capitalists did not give nothing. It was only due to the threat by the East that the social-fascists couped the executive and decided that the workers should have some crumbs from the table too, to prevent the overturning of the captalist order.
The workers were moved from their squalid living conditions in the urban centres, and moved to the suburbs to linger. They even then had to accept unnaturally high prices, which were to be paid off annually to the huge funds whose money were used to invest in the capitalist enterprize.
Hitler gave each member of the working class a Volkswagen.
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
So you prefer the pure agrarian soviet life?
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Where did I say that? People have the misconception that agrarian life is romantic, but I know from my own experience that it is not. It is blood and feces.
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Why are you sitting at a computer then?
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To spread communist propaganda.
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Do you actually recognise the excesses of men like Mao and Stalin?
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Do you realize the excesses of capitalism and Imperialism. How was the British empire capable of providing each labouer in Britain with sugar lumps to put in their tea. Simple. They took slaves from Africa, and put them to work on the sugar plantations in the Caribean. The english labourer was thus only provided with his small luxuries due to the fact that this was produced by breaking th back of slaves.
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Or are you totally blinkered?
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No, are you?
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Oh! Woe to the poor people living in the suburbs!
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They are not poor. they are simply not aware that their wealth is currently being taken away from them. Wealth disparity in Europe is growing as we speak.
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Unable to be liquidated by a people's soviet for disloyalty! |
Do you actually believe this propaganda. Stalin was personally responsible for the eradication of reactionary elements within the army and the communist party. The huge loss of life in the Soviet Union prior to the invasion by Nazi Germany and the subsequent even huger loss of life that resulted in, was not done as a willfull act, but was mainly due to poor and erratic planning
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I think you need to be deprived of your good standard of living for a while, in order to stop taking it for granted.
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I am not taking it for granted. See above. The good living standards are evaporating.
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PS
Have you ever done a day's work?
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I have shoveled chickenshit at a chicken farm in Canada.
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A Volkswagen with tracks and 75mm gun, called a Panzer - and told the working class to invade Russia.
And you know where Hitler's socialism got him. |
Hitler was not a socialist.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
Would you be willing to give up all your posessions and owned goods, to become a destitute worker in a communist regime? |
Read the thread, and you'll notice that I certainly don't advocate public ownership of individual goods. The huge majority of commies, myself included, advocate the public ownership of production means, but also that personal property (watch, car, TV, house, etc.) should be left untouched, or mostly untouched.
In short, NO. And that's perfectly consistent with communism. The idea that communism is about communalizing everything is a misconception.
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curtsibling
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of the Kill!
May 2002
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Where did I say that? People have the misconception that agrarian life is romantic, but I know from my own experience that it is not. It is blood and feces. |
Wannabe communists in the West think they will not have to do any dirty work, in that production happens magically by itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
To spread communist propaganda. |
Pity no-one is interested. 
quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Do you realize the excesses of capitalism and Imperialism. How was the British empire capable of providing each labouer in Britain with sugar lumps to put in their tea. Simple. They took slaves from Africa, and put them to work on the sugar plantations in the Caribean. The english labourer was thus only provided with his small luxuries due to the fact that this was produced by breaking th back of slaves.
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Add Europe, Russia and the USA to that list.
So the Russian Soviets in the 1920-30s urged all those Transcaucausians and
central Asians to happily slave till death from the goodness of their hearts?
Cut down on your LSD intake please.
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Originally posted by Tripledoc
No, are you? |
I can see the evil of communism plain as day.
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Originally posted by Tripledoc
They are not poor. they are simply not aware that their wealth is currently being taken away from them. Wealth disparity in Europe is growing as we speak. |
So giving the corrupt power to men wearing red stars instead will change things?
Tell me, when people were eating their frozen children in Leningrad in WW2, was Stalin starving to death too?
Ponder this.
quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Do you actually believe this propaganda. Stalin was personally responsible for the eradication of reactionary elements within the army and the communist party. The huge loss of life in the Soviet Union prior to the invasion by Nazi Germany and the subsequent even huger loss of life that resulted in, was not done as a willfull act, but was mainly due to poor and erratic planning |
So was the mass liquidation of Poles and North Europeans, and then the invasion of Karellia a case of bad planning?
Insane.
Next you'll be telling us the holocaust was a hoax.
quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
I am not taking it for granted. See above. The good living standards are evaporating. |
Common sense with it, seemingly.
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Originally posted by Tripledoc
I have shoveled chickenshit at a chicken farm in Canada. |
Beware of producing it by verbal means.
quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
Hitler was not a socialist. |
Actually he was.
A nationalist socialist.
Have basic historical facts escaped you?
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Tripledoc
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quote:
Originally posted by curtsibling
But communism will never be adopted in any major Western nation, so the argument is moot. |
This a most basic misconception. You, like Spiffor and Azazel, are under the impression that the path to communism is a politically determined process. It is not.
It is the result overproduction, overcapitializing of industry, and the lack of foreign markets to dump off the goods produced. The latter sparks what is commonly know as Imperialism.
Communism sets in when the imperialists are incapbale of pushing their way into new markets. It is an outcome of historical economic forces.
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08-02-2004 19:25
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