30-04-2004 00:25									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Protoss72000 If they quit after like 5 turns then you would just get a really cheap win. That's why I said maybe a set number of turns need to be played first.

precisely ! i think until turn 20 it is really too early to see if you would lose this game and just get out of the match.
besides, maybe this rule should be combined with being dropped from the ladder altogether... (?)

	30-04-2004 00:27									#272
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then again... some people lose the game already before turn 20.

	30-04-2004 01:12									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Protoss72000 If they quit after like 5 turns then you would just get a really cheap win. That's why I said maybe a set number of turns need to be played first.

Ok..say its 5 or 25 or even 75..what is the difference if NEWBIEMY@R$E0U812 COMES INTO THE COMMUNITY AND SEZ..

hi!! I AM NEW BLAH BLAH BLAH

What must i do to play

so they get "suckered" I mean involved in some games and well..gets to turn"X" just before cutoff turn and up and leave?

Why should the other person playing be penalized?

Let me hear of how one would resolve that versus what we alreday have in place now?

(That being either game ends and concedes..or you wasted your time..I mean..not like any game is NOT a waste mind you..BUT..our little victories are what keep us going!!)


I tell you what happens..

HINT: Person left in game is the consumer in this picture
Peace

GT

	30-04-2004 01:18									#274
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it is not about the penalty for the player that quits, troll. he can be dropped from the ladder, fine. and off he is.

it is about whether the remaining player actually did something to deserve a win. a FULL win.

	30-04-2004 01:20									#275
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oh well, lets make it after turn 1 then.

	30-04-2004 01:34									#276
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I'll just add this to the discussion...

Because this is a LADDER, and the number of victories or losses is more informational than meaningful, it doesn't REALLY matter how many wins or losses you have, but where on the ladder you stand (come to think of it, that doesn't REALLY matter, either ). Defeating a new player and getting a win doesn't change your ladder position -- it just adds one to your win column. If that is important to many of you, then we should continue this discussion, otherwise it is kind of a MOOT point!

	30-04-2004 01:38									#277
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well, im fine with anything. dont wonna argue much around it.

	30-04-2004 02:19									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician it is not about the penalty for the player that quits, troll. he can be dropped from the ladder, fine. and off he is. it is about whether the remaining player actually did something to deserve a win. a FULL win.

Ok..Ok..Ok..

Let me ask you this then:

If a person has sucky land..dont find much tech..has the ai pirating his routes of trade (caravans fer u foreigners here!! )

Point is..he aint got a very good shot...

The other person has mountains,rivers grassland with lots of goodies AND find some neat tech AND has an extremely generous ai for neighbor..

TELL ME Mr Math Major..

HOW CAN THE ONE WITH THE SECOND DESCRIBED SCENARIO WIN AND CONSIDER IT A FULL WIN OR EVEN CONSIDER HE ACTUALLY..HOW DID YOU PUT IT.."DESERVE" TO WIN?

I dont wanna argue either...

But we have a point to ponder..is winning when someone "quits" any more skillfull than the arguement of old that a player with better playing circumstances is made out to be "skilled" when luck of draw makes a world of difference..

HEY BLACKICE..this is where you can jump in too for you and I have had many-a-discussion about "starting positions" dictating many a game..

Ok..so I personally feel if a player steps on the field..(I am an old athlete) all fair in the rules set aside..

	30-04-2004 02:36									#279
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alright, trollie. lets not argue, lets just vote on it. i say win after turn 20. period.

	30-04-2004 02:40									#280
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I would say win ONLY if your PG is higher than your opponent.
And your opponent is not only droped to the bottom of the list but removed from it also.

©Dimytes 2004

Last edited by Dimytes on 30-04-2004 at 02:49

	30-04-2004 02:45									#281
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Troll yuza mud slinger too

This is where the head to head, back to back, same land for the other guy games come into play. Duel duel I think it is called.

I'll bet there is a shorter way to say that...

Quinn does have a point two to be exact, if the player was below or the same position in the ladder then, what the heck they walk you get 1 in the win side. It would not affect your ladder position. Also it is just a ladder did ya have fun?

U could have win loss draw quit but then quinn would spend more time filling the blanks vs family time and gaming. Not much fun for him.

Or you could just continue to slam the person's integrety in every forum in every game site on the web until he shows up to defend himself. Then tell them you will stop if they report the "I quit you win"

That of course would take a lot of time, thus less gaming for you....

Seriously if the person does not finish the game and it does mean something to people as it obviously does. It should be ruled a victory for the opponent, but we walk into the area of fictcious players and multiple log ons to gain top spot. Don't kid yourself it happened in GL a lot.

So really the answer is.... It's a game take the win and create the rule newbies, as they are more likely to boot must finish at least one game to have thier name added to the ladder. That way it is not a ladder game until it's finished.

I personally like to play rookies, ladder or not always fun to meet a fresh personality.

Now for vets it should be labled a win after a prescibed time.

These ideas are protected in copy write laws any and all... book'em Dano'

Last edited by blackice on 01-05-2004 at 01:44

	30-04-2004 02:55									#282
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Troll yuza mud slinger too This is where the head to head, back to back, same land for the other guy games come into play. I'll bet there is a shorter way to say that... Quinn does have a point two to be exact, if the player was below or the same position in the ladder then, what the heck they walk you get 1 in the win side. It would not affect your ladder position. Also it is just a ladder did ya have fun? U could have win loss draw quit but then quinn would spend more time filling the blanks vs family time and gaming. Not much fun for him. Or you could just continue to slam the person's integrety in every forum in every game site on the web until he shows up to defend himself. Then tell them you will stop if they report the "I quit you win" That of course would take a lot of time, thus less gaming for you.... Seriously if the person does not finish the game and it does mean something to people as it obviously does. It should be ruled a victory for the opponent, but we walk into the area of fictcious players and multiple log ons to gain top spot. Don't kid yourself it happened in GL a lot. So really the answer is.... It's a game take the win and create the rule newbies, as they are more likely to boot must finish at least one game to have thier name added to the ladder. That way it is not a ladder game until it's finished. I personally like to play rookies, ladder or not always fun to meet a fresh personality. Now for vets it should be labled a win after a prescibed time. These ideas are protected in copy write laws any and all... book'em Dano'

~ahem~

	30-04-2004 03:20									#283
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It is mostly a problem with newer people it seems. So maybe you need to complete one game first and if they drop/leave then no win/loss for that game (as I think blackice was getting at).

Also Quinns mentioned that you dont rise above in the ladder by wins alone but by who you defeat (which I had forgotten about) so I guess it doesn't really matter.

	30-04-2004 03:42									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll Ok..Ok..Ok.. Let me ask you this then: If a person has sucky land..dont find much tech..has the ai pirating his routes of trade (caravans fer u foreigners here!! ) Point is..he aint got a very good shot... The other person has mountains,rivers grassland with lots of goodies AND find some neat tech AND has an extremely generous ai for neighbor..

Troll, you are making the argument to use the DUAL-DUEL format! If you use the dual-duel format, you completely equalize starting positions. Also, to answer your earlier question about dual-duel counting as one or two matches -- In dual-duel you play two "games" (with sides switched), but it is considered one "match". First one to win a game, wins the match. That match is counted as ONE win.

Another way, that Dimytes pointed out, to get more even random starting positions (without using the dual-duel) is to place all map settings at 50% EXCEPT for wet/dry and warm/cold which are both set to 0%. This gives each player a river, usually, and fairly even terrain.

	30-04-2004 03:49									#285
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quote: Originally posted by quinns First one to win a game, wins the match.

quote: Originally posted by quinns Another way, that Dimytes pointed out, to get more even random starting positions (without using the dual-duel) is to place all map settings at 50% EXCEPT for wet/dry and warm/cold which are both set to 0%. This gives each player a river, usually, and fairly even terrain.

didnt know that. what other effects does this have on the map ? any terrain that will be more common, less common ?

	30-04-2004 03:56									#286
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Troll, you are making the argument to use the DUAL-DUEL format! If you use the dual-duel format, you completely equalize starting positions. Also, to answer your earlier question about dual-duel counting as one or two matches -- In dual-duel you play two "games" (with sides switched), but it is considered one "match". First one to win a game, wins the match. That match is counted as ONE win. Another way, that Dimytes pointed out, to get more even random starting positions (without using the dual-duel) is to place all map settings at 50% EXCEPT for wet/dry and warm/cold which are both set to 0%. This gives each player a river, usually, and fairly even terrain.

Ok

Quinns..another question or inquiry then

I played MPTeach was whooping him and he vanished

The game just went into cyberspace

~poof~

what if the game ended and say I would have won or he resigned and said GT you r da man..

I now have a victory!

~WOOT~

What does that mean?

I beat a newbie..

I have a Victory..

Trolldom shuts down and parties on Preztels, Pralines & Pizza....

BUT..what about my s-l-o-w assent to the ladder rungs?

IF a victory on a newbie dont mean anything..

IF a "WIN" dont count on much..

How should a person play agame and advance?

Personally..it frustrates da fricking Hades outta me to for a week waiting on a turn....


So..say I am in a game where there are say 3 players...

we each take a turns a week..

say 52 weeks and you have 52 turns played

THAT is my best case scenario...that after 2 years..IF the players stick it out..I get to renaissance 1.5 years later..maybe modern after 2 years

THIS is a fun game to WHOM???

My point, and Yes Blackice there quite possibly is ashorter one..but i am L-O-N-G so I talk long slow and long..

I am supposed to play that long and IF the other guys dissappear just too bad for my time and efforts?

After 2 years I win..say..what if the guys I am playing are in that game only..I get _zilcch-Nada-squat fer the victory?

Just asking..seems a waste to play newbies or one of the unreliables here..

	30-04-2004 10:30									#287
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Grandpa Troll, Here is how you move up faster: Challenge a player three above you. You can challenge higher than that if you want to, but the challenged player isn't obliged to accept a match more than three below -- BUT they may accept! You can challenge berXpert if you like (like blackice did, who was more than three below, and berXpert DID accept). Once accepted there is no turning back Challenge matches take anywhere from 1 to 4 months, on average, to complete. (I think some players have even finished a PBEM challenge match in less than a month!!).

	30-04-2004 10:34									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician didnt know that. what other effects does this have on the map ? any terrain that will be more common, less common ?

Not exactly sure, but these settings give a good mix of rivers, forest, jungle, mountains, hills, plains, and grasslands, in my opinion.

	30-04-2004 12:57									#289
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What used to happen when people abandoned is that some sanction was taken against them SPECIFICALLY for abandoning..

I do not know how the rating system works now, but certainly within at least 50 turns no victory should be given.. HOWEVER a very punitive deduction should be given to the one that abandons.. And if it happens again they are removed from the league.. except in the most exceptional of circumstances... Cheap victories are meaningless.

	30-04-2004 14:32									#290
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although it may seem as though i want to argue again (dont want to, dont want to ) i agree with gavrushka.

	30-04-2004 15:14									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician although it may seem as though i want to argue again (dont want to, dont want to ) i agree with gavrushka.

I agree with Me too!

We also had a punishment for slow turn rate (less than one a day excepting weekends), unless a specific reason was given...

I think it is time to play hardball with game breakers.. What say you all?

	30-04-2004 15:19									#292
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Says the man who's been absent for over a year

	30-04-2004 15:33									#293
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i dont like the idea of a minimum turn rate.
IF a player really cares about his games and IF he has other things to do, he can easily make up for that time he is unavailable by playing more turns at another time.
these are all 1x1 games. they usually still get done quite fast as compared to those 8 player games.

	30-04-2004 16:18									#294
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quote: Originally posted by ricketyclik Says the man who's been absent for over a year

Leave him be....

(although you are being chastised for beating me to the punch!!)


GT

	30-04-2004 17:32									#295
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quote: Originally posted by ricketyclik Says the man who's been absent for over a year

It is a serious point, but I informed people.. That is the difference..

When a PBEM was set up, rules were agreed. When a turn rate is suggested... It is merely that.. A guideline. But when a new game used to be started the rules were agreed prior to playing. If someone plays a turn a week in an 8 player I suggest that is unfair on the other seven.

I don't see a valid argument AGAINST a minimum turn rate, taking into account I already said that if someone temporarily cannot meet this requirement courtesy dictates they inform people.

I imagine it would be difficult for a lot of players to keep enthusiasm in a game if the turn rate is so slow, you know it is going to be over a month before you get your first settler out..

If you look at the start of threads for the old PBEM you will see that a series of rules, or more guidelines were applied to the way the game was played.

A turn a day refers to a turn being played within a day of receiving it.... Not (in the event of an eight player game) all 8 playing each day.. Sense also dictated the turn order to speed things, with GMT + players going before GMT - players..

	30-04-2004 17:44									#296
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all that makes perfect sense in a multiplayer game, Gavrushka.
but in a 1x1 game it simply is not necessary to play one turn in 24 hours nor to inform someone if you are about to take 48 or 72 hours for the turn.
however, if you are absent for a longer time, a note sure makes sense, though i dont see that it is necessary.

it is a totally different thing of course if each turn takes 2 or more days. but from what i can tell, even those games have shown to be finished in a reasonable time. unless the player disappears altogether, like Mieciofok apparently.

	30-04-2004 17:46									#297
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1v1 is totally different.. You can send the turn and say BTW I am away now... And yes no such rules are necessary there.. I agree.

	30-04-2004 21:09									#298
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Right. And this is the PBEM Challenge Ladder thread so we are only talking about 1 vs. 1. It sounds like most of us are in agreement about leaving things be as they stand now.

	30-04-2004 21:25									#299
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Right. And this is the PBEM Challenge Ladder thread so we are only talking about 1 vs. 1. It sounds like most of us are in agreement about leaving things be as they stand now.

gnnnn...

er... yes

	30-04-2004 22:28									#300
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quote: Originally posted by quinns Right. And this is the PBEM Challenge Ladder thread so we are only talking about 1 vs. 1. It sounds like most of us are in agreement about leaving things be as they stand now.

I will find my way round this maze of Threads.. Sorry Steve I had NO IDEA..