30-05-2004 11:07									#421
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I tend to believe in Maths theory.... Going to take a look at the savings of old 8-player games (both with 8 humans and with 2 humans/6AIs).

	30-05-2004 16:09									#422
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I think there can be large variation in AI behaviour though. And this may tend to imbalance a game when a lot of AI are used. For example, Birdman may remember that in a game where I won against him, the AI were very peaceful with me, but they harrassed Bird the whole game.

	30-05-2004 16:25									#423
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quote: Originally posted by checkMate And this may tend to imbalance a game when a lot of AI are used.

what you forget is the difference between systematic and statistical "imbalances".
starting conditions systematically favor the player with the lower seat number. AI behaviour cannot be predicted before the game to favor one or the other player, so it falls under statistical randomness. statistical randomness, however, is a natural part of most games and i personally accept it to be. ruins, barbarian attacks, land quality further away from your starting position, these all neither benefit nor penalize one player systematically, so they have to be considered 'equal' before the game.
of course if you want an all skill based game like chess, you have to eliminate those factors. however, in a luck/skill game like poker these are essential.

	30-05-2004 16:40									#424
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Yes, your right. The starting position (being based on player number) is systematic. The factor I mention is random. However that factor (AI behaviour) will be more pronounced with more AI. Perhaps blackice method is best. He has a third party remove all AI after starting a game. In that case the humans could be 1,3 or 6,8 for a fair game, and with out the AI factor.

However, I think no AI games are a bit boring sometimes.

	30-05-2004 16:44									#425
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how does one manipulate a PBEM game once started ? someone said you can use the cheat mode during the first turn. but i couldnt do it. do i have to rename to .dat, open regulary, then cheat mode ? and will that work only during the first turn ? ah well, i guess i just try.

	30-05-2004 17:44									#426
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There is a no-AI-scenario that kills the AI the first turn. I think I recieved this one from Blackice a few months ago.

©Dimytes 2004

Attachment: noaisscenario.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	30-05-2004 18:09									#427
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i assume there is no way of combining several scenarios ?

	30-05-2004 19:09									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician how does one manipulate a PBEM game once started ? someone said you can use the cheat mode during the first turn. but i couldnt do it. do i have to rename to .dat, open regulary, then cheat mode ? and will that work only during the first turn ? ah well, i guess i just try.

You must launch the game using the 'Launch editor' button ratehr than the usual 'Launch' button.

	30-05-2004 19:11									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician i assume there is no way of combining several scenarios ?

At least partly, there should be. Certainly it would be easy to add the AI-killing feature to any other scenario. It would require messing around with the files which make them up, though.

	30-05-2004 19:13									#430
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i see. any easy way to create a new scenario that simply includes two or more other scenarios in a kind of command file ?

	30-05-2004 19:15									#431
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quote: someone said you can use the cheat mode during the first turn.

Interesting to find out who said that, try to remember for us ok Math?

Not that I am aware of no it will not open even in .dat mode. I do know some slic codes work after the game has started BerXpert brought that to our attention many moons ago.
Of course you could just use say all land and rivers map or all hills and mountains map to equalize the start positions. Or as we have done many times get someone else to do the land and balance it for both players.

Ai will generally attack the winning or the losing player or the player not friendly to thier ally. If the AI has made friends with the other player chances are that the other player will suffer continued attacks and a game imbalance takes place. If the AI has better land the player taking the attacks will fall behind fast.

Removing ruins, wonders, and AI with a balanced map make this game as close as you can get to an all skill game.

quote: i assume there is no way of combining several scenarios ?

I would think that a combined scenerio would have to be made as such.

	30-05-2004 19:19									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician i see. any easy way to create a new scenario that simply includes two or more other scenarios in a kind of command file ?

Probably not, no. In the case of the no-AI scenario the only change is to SLIC, so you could justcopy out the content of the scenario.slc file and append it to the corresponding file for the other scenario. The more complicated the scenarios, the more complicated the changes you'd have to make.

	30-05-2004 19:20									#433
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quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: someone said you can use the cheat mode during the first turn. Interesting to find out who said that, try to remember for us ok Math?

'twas I, and I said it again 5 posts ago.

	30-05-2004 19:26									#434
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway 'twas I, and I said it again 5 posts ago.

that was one of the easiest problems i ever had to solve.

	30-05-2004 20:22									#435
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J Bytheway ok what you refer to is when setting the game up right? But once the game turn has been played and sent off it no longer works, correct?

	30-05-2004 20:30									#436
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quote: Originally posted by blackice J Bytheway ok what you refer to is when setting the game up right? But once the game turn has been played and sent off it no longer works, correct?

That's correct, yes.

	30-05-2004 22:21									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician i see. any easy way to create a new scenario that simply includes two or more other scenarios in a kind of command file ?

This can be done by using the "#include" directive. A SLIC file can include code that resides in other files by writing
#include "[filename]"
(like in the C programming language). So if you want to mix for example the OFT and the NoAIs scenarios, you can do the following:
- rename the "scenario.slc" file of the NoAIs scenario to "NoAIs.slc"
- copy the file to the "OneFreeTech\scen0000\default\gamedata" folder of the OFT scenario
- add the line #include "NoAIs.slc" to the "scenario.slc" file of the OFT scenario
The file should then look like

// some comments ...
#include "oft_slic.slc"
#include "NoAIs.slc"

Of course this works only if the trigger, variable and other names used in the code are different in both scenarios (wich is the reason why all the OFT names start with "oft" ).

	30-05-2004 22:36									#438
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thanks hatschy.
but i was thinking about the very simple variant where you make a new scenario, which you just modify by including all the scenario data you want in any given case, for example:


in mix_scenario/scen0000/default/gamedata/scenario.slc:

#include "../../../../OneFreeTech/scen0000/default/gamedata/scenario.slc"
#include "../../../../NoAIs/scen0000/default/gamedata/scenario.slc"


would that work ?

	30-05-2004 22:40									#439
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and how do you get those super league, democracy game, ... symbols beside your user name ?

	30-05-2004 22:44									#440
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Well, I tried that first, but it didn't work. I got some syntax errors .

	30-05-2004 22:47									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician and how do you get those super league, democracy game, ... symbols beside your user name ?

Join some groups. Each has its own symbol.

	30-05-2004 22:49									#442
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quote: Originally posted by hatschy Well, I tried that first, but it didn't work. I got some syntax errors .

did you try the slashes both ways (/ \)?

	30-05-2004 23:06									#443
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quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician did you try the slashes both ways (/ \)?

Ok I tried that now and backslashes work better than slashes, BUT the OFT scenario includes another file and that one cannot be not found by CtP, unless you also add the "..\..\..\..\OneFreeTech\scen0000\default\gamedata\" prefix to that include statement. So for being able to combine scenarios that way, it should be a rule for all scenario writers to add such a prefix to all their #include statements .

	30-05-2004 23:11									#444
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hmmm. at least it is possible, right ?

	31-05-2004 03:41									#445
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Yes, it's possible.

	31-05-2004 09:48									#446
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Uh oh .... Looks like the ladder has been truncated. Has anyone seen the CTP PBEM Challenge ladder? When I try to view it, it is gone.

	31-05-2004 13:50									#447
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must have been a temporary problem. when i view it i see 22 members.

	31-05-2004 14:13									#448
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What do you mean "members"?

	31-05-2004 14:15									#449
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...participating people...

	31-05-2004 14:25									#450
	Remove this text

Where do you get that information? Which screen and where?