06-02-2004 15:35									#1
	Turn 172 : 570AD Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Physics. Magnets in 5 turns.

	06-02-2004 15:54									#2
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Physics.

Typhoon builds aqua, starts Harbor
Sufa builds temple, starts library
Sandstorm builds worker - start another, set for +4fpt, +3 spt for two turns


Monsoon builds Library (30bpt@70%!), starts mkt
Chop last forest into Typhoon - no bonus-grass . Rearrange wf in Typhoon & Sufa to give Sufa more shields.
Add worker into Sufa for size 11
2 Workers around Sandstorm go toward EotS. Maybe need to irrigate a mine when Hurricane takes EotS-9 in 2 turns
6 workers from Santa Ana build fortress on mnt @ SA-99
3 workers build fortress on mnt @ Inchoff-1

Magnets in 5 turns, -8gpt.

	06-02-2004 15:57									#3
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Turn sent

	06-02-2004 20:17									#4
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jesus


We are coooking now. untouchable economically and scientifically until marines

Good job CH, you've really righted the ship. In the past one of these automatic turns would have taken the full 24 hours. (not saying that your job is easy, just that there are no "difficult" decisions to make, you know?)

	06-02-2004 21:11									#5
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Yes, cooking nicely indeed. Cheers, sleepy. Now many of the decisions have been made, the patterns's been established and the plan is on course it's brilliant to see the pop grow, the commerce roll in and the libraries go up. If we get those science wonders it's gonna get very pretty. The only thing then between us and the ToE is Lego's GA.

For me, this is more fun than the war. Those turns were very tough. The challenge now is dealing with GoW, and worrying a bit about RP. Getting these awkward, slippery tech deals with GoW right could be vital for our chances, yet they can never fully be trusted.

If a GS-GoW tech partnership can keep GoW out of Lego's tech-sphere, so much the better. Let Lego help GoW militarily if the time comes for that.

	06-02-2004 21:25									#6
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The economic foundation laid down in the beginning by Nathan & Dominae and the rest of us is definitely paying off now. And Cort has done a great job transitioning us from guns to butter.

The next problem comes with Marines. Once they show up, we're screwed. We can either a) devote a horrific amount of our economic might to defending ourselves; or b) hope nobody will bother with us, since we're no longer a frontrunner.

It's a catch-22. If we do well in the coming turns and manage to get ToE and/or Hoover, we will be painting a bullseye on ourselves. If we don't, we will have almost zero hope of winning.

If we get towards the finish line and we're actually a threat to win, somebody will hit us with marines. If we have enough of an army do defeat that strike, we will most likely have taken ourselves out of the running by building and maintaining that force. If we do not, we'll get conquered.

But that's all down the road. For now, we play smart and do our best, and maybe it's enough to salvage this thing.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 21:51									#7
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How many units do we currently have acting as our seawall? If we replace them with 75% infantry as and when we can (upgrades, new builds) - assuming we get rubber - then how many units does that give us in each coastal city? We have something like 130 units? And about 10 coastal cities. We can get 9 infantry in each one and still have 30 fast defense units (not worth it if we are stuck with knights) or 'spare' infantry. How big a force is someone going to need to take a coastal town under those circumstances?

If we don't get rubber, and can't grab some on Bob in the event of a ND/GoW war, we really are screwed come marines - we make too tempting a target for everyone, but Lego in particular IMHO.

	06-02-2004 21:53									#8
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I have been impressed by the yeoman job you have done CH.

By the time Marines come around we will hopefully find a chance to get into someones land. If so we will have an ally of substance such as GoW or ND.

	06-02-2004 21:57									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We might need to come up with a contingency plan somewhere around the time we are getting ToE.

we might consider, if we get that, to take atom theory and replaceable parts, rather than electronics.

We need to know early if we have no rubber, we need to know before other teams do. Even then, bob rubber might be in the heart of nd or GoW. Praying for a coastal deposit.

I can imagine us rolling either no coal or no rubber.

	06-02-2004 22:03									#10
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What amazed me when I started playing the turns was how much much commercial output there was with very few improvements - even in the big core cities. The terrain was nearly fully developed in the early middle ages, which is why we can now add the workers to cities and micro-manage tile output for efficiency.

By contrast ND looks not-brilliantly developed, unless GoW's map was very out-of-date. Maybe that's why they gave it us. ND have to build settlers and zounds of workers to make the most of their bounty, while GoW's industrial workers should quickly develop their limited terrain.

	06-02-2004 22:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vulture How many units do we currently have acting as our seawall? If we replace them with 75% infantry as and when we can (upgrades, new builds) - assuming we get rubber - then how many units does that give us in each coastal city? We have something like 130 units? And about 10 coastal cities. We can get 9 infantry in each one and still have 30 fast defense units (not worth it if we are stuck with knights) or 'spare' infantry. How big a force is someone going to need to take a coastal town under those circumstances? If we don't get rubber, and can't grab some on Bob in the event of a ND/GoW war, we really are screwed come marines - we make too tempting a target for everyone, but Lego in particular IMHO.

Excluding the 19 workers and 5 galleys, we have 90 units, or which 12 are surplus. If RP complete their own sea wall we get another 11.

3 warr
8 spear
27 pike
24 knight
8 cat
6 WC
14 MI


We have 14 coastal cities, though.

	06-02-2004 22:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If we get towards the finish line and we're actually a threat to win, somebody will hit us with marines. -Arrian

How do Marines do against Mech Inf?

	06-02-2004 22:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We have 14 coastal cities, though.

dumb question at this stage, but is there anyway we could relocate a coastal city or two one square inland?

I'm thinking in a city like d'ville, we could stack a group of frigates the one adjacent coastal tile. Or even galleys, for that matter. Risky, but might loosen up the defense for a city or two. what I mean is, might be easier to protect from transports by blocking with 5 frigates than defend against 20 marines. I'm sure they will guard the transports, but they can't have lots of everything, you know?

	06-02-2004 22:35									#14
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Too much investment now for relocating cities, I think.

	06-02-2004 23:13									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Too much investment now for relocating cities, I think.

yeah I think so too. our continent is just too coastal to do anything

I think we will just have to be careful about having pickets and we might have to declare a preemptive war to interdict transports.

	06-02-2004 23:36									#16
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Yes, some kind of picket-observed exclusion zone might be in order - but a key defense could, as vmxa1 said, be diplomatic. Who knows what shape the world is by then.

With pickets, we don't need every city stuffed. We can keep SOL's (Stacks Of Life) in at-risk locations and keep an eye on the oceans.

The main risk would be GoW via Nuevo Espana. Eliopolis must be the main repository of units. It already has 10 Knights.

	06-02-2004 23:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel our continent is just too coastal to do anything .

Swings and Roundabouts. We suffer from a low tile count, but have the pleasure of enjoying most of an era safe from attack. We lack shields, but need not develop the seas for 3 commerce per tile.

The best we can do is enjoy the game by playing as well as we can with what we've got. Our key asset is currently commerce, and we seek to optimise that by reaching key wonder-techs.

	07-02-2004 02:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus How do Marines do against Mech Inf?

Much better than I expected. I had a game recently (not sure if it was demi or what) where I took an island that had 5 cities all coastal. I had a 4 man calv army and IIRC two infantry (not MI) and two marines killed both INf and almost got the army. I was shocked and moved to bolster those cities with tanks.

I had a few other MI vs marines on another island (1 city) and I know that did not go as well as I expected either.

So all am saying is they can be very nasty and I am now scared of them. I had arties on hand in both islands as I had an aiport for both, but the arties were used for the ships. That may have been a mistake, but I was trying to reduce their HP for my bombers to finish them off.

	07-02-2004 03:36									#19
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I just pray that whatever happens on bob or legoland war wise, noone generates a leader and uses it on an army.

We might be able to defend against marines one on one, a marine army would be nigh unstoppable.

	07-02-2004 04:12									#20
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But marine armies aren't amphibious! (According to Theseus's sig)

	07-02-2004 04:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus But marine armies aren't amphibious! (According to Theseus's sig)

alas, but all marine armies and all berzerk armies are, its just when you mix the two do they lose that ability. I think.

	07-02-2004 04:20									#22
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Oh. Having never researched amphibious warware, let alone built a marine, (or played the Sandndinavians) I'm not up-to-speed on these matters.

	09-02-2004 03:40									#23
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Hey guys!! I'm ba-ack!

I thought this would be an appropriate spot to chime in... only the mixed Marine and Berserk Armies do not function. Monotype Armies work just fine.

Here is Catt's original thread on Marines:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=53028

City defenses seemingly do apply, and I presume that Radar Towers do as well. Don;t forget though, btw, that the Marine attack doesn;t necessarily have to hit a city, but can be on open ground as well. We may therefore want to consider forting the entire perimeter.

	09-02-2004 04:14									#24
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Hey Theseus! Great to see ya

We've got some fortresses started in the north on mountains - but I think the feeling so far was that we can't defend every tile equally, and the biggest danger is losing a city that can be used in the same turn for conventional forces (cav, tanks) to rip through the core like H_E's example. The argument was that defending high ground forces them to land on flat.

Hopefully, the Spartan Acadamy can be the site for development of our 'Marine Defense Doctrine'.

	09-02-2004 04:15									#25
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BTW anything I have posted about Marines is from C3C and may not apply to PTW. I never faced a marine in CIV or PTW, only C3C.

I mean a marine during amphip attack.

	09-02-2004 04:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus City defenses seemingly do apply, and I presume that Radar Towers do as well. Don;t forget though, btw, that the Marine attack doesn;t necessarily have to hit a city, but can be on open ground as well. We may therefore want to consider forting the entire perimeter.

good to know.

to add to what CH said. The thought (or hope perhaps) is that we can't guard each square sufficiently, so we will only guard the cities, hopefully holding them. If they choose to land, we will have arties and knights/guerillas waiting for them, as we get one turn to hit. If they take a city via marine, they can offload all their cav army and we are toast.

	09-02-2004 04:47									#27
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btw, Theseus, vondrack had trouble with your email addy. I said you'd contact him to update it when you got back. Meanwhile you might be off the save list.