07-02-2004 01:36									#1
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It appears that CGN is in dire need of assistance. What can we do to help?

I have been thinking if we can help finance CGN's war effort. Right now CGN is in a race towards Gunpowder and thus their ability to upgrade units is limited. Perhaps Apolyton and CFC can contribute upgrade funds so that they have a viable force to defend against GWT's monster horde.

Currently we are just as advanced tech-wise as any other civ. We can perhaps sacrifice our tech race a bit and help out CGN with hard currency.

Understand that if CGN loses this war, it will be well near impossible to win this game.

Well, any other suggestions short of exploits on how we can help CGN?

	07-02-2004 01:45									#2
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First, not do too much.

We can't dedicate ourselves to one side or the other fully until we know what will happen. As was mentioned elsewhere, if CGN defeats GWT and has a lot of Knights leftover, then they could race back up and cause a crisis for GWT.

That having been said, CGN is definitely on the lower end of the showdown, and will probably need some help to equalize things. As Donegeal mentioned, we can also use this as an opportunity to get a hold on CGN's economy for our own benefit. Loan them, say, 240 gold to upgrade Muskets, with 5% interest per turn on that sum - over 10 turns we make an extra 120 gold.

With the Catapults, we can do something similar, along the lines of 15 gold per Catapult per 10 turns. 10 Catapults over 10 turns gives us 150 gold. Overall, we could make ~300 gold every 10 turns, or an average of 30 GPT.

	07-02-2004 01:54									#3
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HAHA!!

So, now you want to 'loan' CGN our Cats?

	07-02-2004 01:58									#4
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree HAHA!! So, now you want to 'loan' CGN our Cats?

The poll is in favor of warping units, therefore I will work within the possibilities.

Do you have a problem with that?

	07-02-2004 18:06									#5
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I was against it originally, but that was for moral reasons. Since Mongoose has ruled that Unit warping is legal, I no longer feel obligated to my morals (regarding warp exploits). If it has been deemed a valid tactic, we can no longer let our morals get in the way. We either adapt, or die.

	07-02-2004 18:58									#6
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Moral support, intel (investigations), gold, helping them with warps (I reluctantly agree to this), but I say no to us using warp technology to gift them any catapults.

Too many things can go wrong.

1. GWT could take them .. or
2. If it goes pear shaped for GWT, we will have to switch sides to ensure CGN does not conquor the continent. Giving them cats will help them in this conquest.
3. Warping units across continents is still manipulating the game mechanics way too far in my books. I dont care if its allowed by Mongoose or another team did it. I just dont feel right about doing it.

	08-02-2004 08:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The poll is in favor of warping units, therefore I will work within the possibilities. Do you have a problem with that?

You know what I want to do. I just find it a little funny your in favor of this now when before you were totally opposed. I guess I should really just shut up now and not tell you why you should still be opposed!

	08-02-2004 08:27									#8
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flamewar now

	08-02-2004 20:12									#9
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One more time just to make my position clear:

I'm only ok with unit warping if we don't try to hide that we are doing by abusing the turn order.

Three reasons:
1) Mongoose has said its ok to warp units as crazy as that is. I don't feel that its in the spirit of the game, but its already been done, and it can be done by every team. It sucks, I don't agree with it, but I can live with it.
2) Hiding it makes it feel like we are trying to get away with something. It gives what is otherwise a cheesy tactic that has been ruled legal an underhanded feel.
3) Unlike unit warping itself, hiding it via the turn order is not an option to every team.

	08-02-2004 22:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon One more time just to make my position clear: I'm only ok with unit warping if we don't try to hide that we are doing by abusing the turn order. Three reasons: 1) Mongoose has said its ok to warp units as crazy as that is. I don't feel that its in the spirit of the game, but its already been done, and it can be done by every team. It sucks, I don't agree with it, but I can live with it. 2) Hiding it makes it feel like we are trying to get away with something. It gives what is otherwise a cheesy tactic that has been ruled legal an underhanded feel. 3) Unlike unit warping itself, hiding it via the turn order is not an option to every team.

If its to be made open, then does this impact the forced peace with GCA? As our principle argument was that we could not wage war on each other, we would then be on the same landmass, albeit temporarily.

	08-02-2004 23:18									#11
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We don't have to announce our moves. GCA and GWT did not. We do our turn and that's it. If GCA and GWT want to know what happened, let them figure it out.

	09-02-2004 01:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree We don't have to announce our moves. GCA and GWT did not. We do our turn and that's it. If GCA and GWT want to know what happened, let them figure it out.

I'm of this opinion. We have no interest in informing our opponents of the details of our military strategies and manuevers. Unit warping has been legalized and we're rather unhappy with that, but if we're going to use it, we shouldn't kill what little element of surprise we might have available to us in doing so.

	09-02-2004 13:45									#13
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We do not have to 'hide' anything. We just do not need to tell them, unless they ask for it.

	09-02-2004 19:12									#14
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I'm fine with a don't ask don't tell policy with GWT and GCA, but *if* they ask, we need to be up front and frank about it, and we need to inform Mongoose before we do it.

	09-02-2004 21:35									#15
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I'm ok with loaning CGN money.

I'm ok with accepting Boston, though I'm annoyed at them for putting themselves in the current situation (such that Apolyton either assists with a unit warp, or watches CGN take a beating).

I'm not happy about it, but since unit warps have been used against us, I think we should use them as well. You either outlaw an exploit, or it's fair game. If ND/GoW were to use unit warping in the ptwdg, I'm fine with it. GS, Vox, and RP did it, so so can they.

Therefore, I say we do lend them cats, but with a catch: we want to be involved in their military planning. We can say we want to retain nominal control over our catapults (hell, we could offer to pay their upkeep costs on them in exchange), but my real concern is trying to prevent another bout of idiocy from them, ala what's been going on up around Boston. GWT is not ****ing around. They're coming, and CGN needs to get their asses in gear.

-Arrian

	10-02-2004 01:35									#16
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CGN was supposed to have gotten their A$$es into gear 20 turns or more ago, when we first warned them about GWT having cut their Iron.

E_T

	10-02-2004 01:40									#17
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The problem isn't what they're working with, it's how they're using what they have.

They have more Knights than CGN has Ansar (on the front). They have more Galleys. They have 2x GWT's Pikes near the front. They have a few less MIs, but that's balanced out by CGN being on defense with Muskets only a few turns away.

If they had cut their iron to upgrade Knights then they wouldn't have money to research Gunpowder or to upgrade Muskets.

	10-02-2004 04:29									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They have more Knights than CGN has Ansar (on the front). They have more Galleys. They have 2x GWT's Pikes near the front. They have a few less MIs, but that's balanced out by CGN being on defense with Muskets only a few turns away.

GWT may have more troops than we know. Given their obvious skill at the game, it seems uncharacteristic for them to attack with so few units.


Dominae

	10-02-2004 04:42									#19
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I agree. GWT has not been that stupid from all the lurking I have done. I doubt that things are as clear as they appear. Help them. Don't hide it (but don't advertise either). And stick our noses in what IS our buisness (because we made it so).

	10-02-2004 17:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The problem isn't what they're working with, it's how they're using what they have. They have more Knights than CGN has Ansar (on the front). They have more Galleys. They have 2x GWT's Pikes near the front. They have a few less MIs, but that's balanced out by CGN being on defense with Muskets only a few turns away. If they had cut their iron to upgrade Knights then they wouldn't have money to research Gunpowder or to upgrade Muskets.

Yes, BUT, they would have more knights, pikes and MI's than they have now. If it had meant that they would survive TO get to GP (although later) AND Upgrade so that the Muskets CAN make a difference, then it would have been worth it.

E_T

	10-02-2004 23:35									#21
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Yes, BUT, they would have more knights, pikes and MI's than they have now. If it had meant that they would survive TO get to GP (although later) AND Upgrade so that the Muskets CAN make a difference, then it would have been worth it.

If they hadn't of screwed up so badly now, they would have had plenty of time to build/upgrade Muskets before the first big battle.

Personally, I think it was a good move to go full ahead science to GP. Of course, that working depended on them being able to hold GWT off long enough for them to hook up saltpeter and get more cash to upgrade with...

	10-02-2004 23:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae GWT may have more troops than we know. Given their obvious skill at the game, it seems uncharacteristic for them to attack with so few units.

GWT does probably have one more trick up their sleeve.

Using my sim I've calculated that GWT can get 250 GPT even while at 20% luxuries. At 0% luxuries they can get 350 GPT.

250 GPT over 10 turns is 2500 gold, and they certainly have no problems generating enough shields in some of those cities, especially with their FP in Ruhrpott

Altogether, those 10 turns... over 40 Ansar...

	10-02-2004 23:47									#23
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I believe you are grossly overestimating. You are not accounting for cities that over or under produce and thus waste shields. Also, have you accounted for the upkeep of all those units?

It's better to overestimate an opponent than underestimate them, but you make it sound a if CGN is going to get buried which I don't see happening.

	11-02-2004 00:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I believe you are grossly overestimating. You are not accounting for cities that over or under produce and thus waste shields.

With no Courthouses, cities as far away as Flammburg can produce 15 SPT. Webringen does 30. All other significant cities do at least 10 SPT. They can even do 20 SPT in Ruhrpott, with 10 SPT in multiple larger cities around it.

quote: Also, have you accounted for the upkeep of all those units?

In the sim I've given GWT 130 units.

	11-02-2004 00:06									#25
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I was just reading some chatlog...

Moving their knights 22 and gifting Boston was "struck down by the mob?"



So now what?

-Arrian

	11-02-2004 00:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I was just reading some chatlog... Moving their knights 22 and gifting Boston was "struck down by the mob?" So now what? -Arrian

Currently favored proposal is moving the Knights 2-3. Don't ask me why. Don't ask me how.

It'll probably (hopefully) change again by the time CGN plays their turn.

On another note, GWT must be giddy in their boots right now, knowing how much anguish this must be causing CGN.

	11-02-2004 00:13									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I was just reading some chatlog... Moving their knights 22 and gifting Boston was "struck down by the mob?" So now what? -Arrian

miccofl is considering taking control of the Military through a declaration of putting Martial Law into effect. It is allowed in their Consitution.

	11-02-2004 00:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree miccofl is considering taking control of the Military through a declaration of putting Martial Law into effect. It is allowed in their Consitution.

He definitely needs to do that...and then listen to our military experts. We didn't want to get too involved with one team over the other, but CGN needs the advice of our military experts or they're going to get buried. And we definitely don't want that!!

	11-02-2004 01:09									#29
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I'm going to be pretty upset if CGN's bumbling military commanders end up handing this game to GWT...