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Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 09-02-2004 23:53
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NYTimes on Bush Interview Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree with this:

"When Americans choose a president, their most profound consideration is whether a candidate can make the wisest possible decisions when it comes to war. In the case of George W. Bush, they will not only judge whether the invasion of Iraq was the right decision, but what our president has brought away from that experience. If there were misjudgments about the nature of Iraq's weapons programs or in the ways the administration presented that intelligence to the public, we need to know whether he recognizes them and has learned from them. Yesterday, in an interview with NBC's Tim Russert, after a week in which it became obvious to most Americans that the justifications for the war were based on flawed intelligence, Mr. Bush offered his reflections, and they were far from reassuring. The only clarity in the president's vision appears to be his own perfect sense of self-justification.

Right now, the questions average Americans are asking about Iraq seem much clearer than the ones Mr. Bush is willing to confront. People want to know why American intelligence was so wrong about the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Mr. Bush didn't have a consistent position on this pivotal issue. At some points during his Oval Office interview, he seemed to be admitting that he had been completely wrong when he told the public just before the war started that the intelligence left "no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." At other moments he suggested the weapons might still be hidden somewhere, or that they may have been transported to another country. At times he depicted himself as having been misled by intelligence reports. But he insisted that George Tenet, the director of central intelligence, was doing a good job and deserved to keep his job.

Average Americans are also asking themselves whether invading Iraq would have seemed like the right decision if we knew then what we know now. Mr. Bush doesn't seem willing to even take on this critical question. He repeatedly referred to Saddam Hussein as a dangerous madman, without defining the threat that even a madman, without any weapons of mass destruction, posed to the United States. At one point, his reasoning seemed to be that even if the dictator did not have the feared weapons, he could have started manufacturing them on a moment's notice. To bolster his position, he cited David Kay, the American weapons inspector, as reporting that "Saddam Hussein was dangerous with the ability to make weapons." In fact, Mr. Kay said that Iraq's weapons program seemed to have ground to a halt under the pressure of the United Nations inspections and sanctions that Mr. Bush and his staff disdained last year. Mr. Kay said Saddam Hussein retained only the basic ability to restart weapons programs if that pressure were removed.

At other times, the president seemed to argue that the invasion was necessary simply to demonstrate that Americans did not back down from a fight. "In my judgment, when the United States says there will be serious consequences, and if there isn't serious consequences, it creates adverse consequences," he said. Although Mr. Bush tried to portray himself as a man who exhausted every peaceful solution, the "serious consequences" were threatened in a United Nations resolution in late 2002 that Mr. Bush was forced to seek to mollify nervous allies after the decision to have a war was essentially made.

Mr. Bush's explanation of how he reconciled the current activities in Iraq with his 2000 campaign rejection of "nation building" was simply silly. (American troops are building a nation in Iraq, he said, but they are also "fighting a war so that they can build a nation.") And it's very hard to take seriously Mr. Bush's contention that he was not surprised by the intensity of the resistance in Iraq.

The president was doing far more yesterday than rolling out the administration's spin for the next campaign. He was demonstrating how he is likely to think if confronted with a similar crisis in the future. The fuzziness and inconsistency of his comments suggest he is still relying on his own moral absolutism, that in a dangerous world the critical thing is to act decisively, and worry about connecting the dots later. Mr. Bush said repeatedly that he went to the United Nations seeking a diplomatic alternative to war. In fact, the United States rejected all diplomatic alternatives at the time, severely damaging relations with some of its most important and loyal allies. "I believe it is essential that when we see a threat, we deal with those threats before they become imminent," he said. "It's too late if they become imminent."

Another question average Americans will be asking themselves this election year is whether the Bush administration, which wanted to invade Iraq even before Sept. 11, manipulated the intelligence reports to frighten Congress and the public into supporting the idea. The president's claim yesterday that Congress had access to exactly the same intelligence he had was inaccurate, and his comments about the new commission he has appointed to look into intelligence gathering made it clear that he has no intention of having his administration's actions included in the probe.

Some of Mr. Bush's comments yesterday raise questions even more disturbing than the idea that senior administration members might have misled the nation about the intelligence on Iraq. The nation obviously needs a leader who is always alert to the threat of terrorism from abroad. But it cannot afford to have one who responds to the trauma of 9/11 by overreacting to the possibility of danger. In the coming campaign, Mr. Bush, who described himself as a "war president," is going to have to show the country that he is capable of distinguishing real threats from false alarms, and has the courage to tell the nation the truth about something as profound as war. Nothing in the interview offered much hope in that direction."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/09/o.../09MON1.html?th

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
  Old Post 09-02-2004 23:56
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Got spare money?

Isn't that the exact line liberals used before the interview?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:00
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wow Ned, j00 a commie leftist pinko bastard... PREPAR E TO BE DEPORTED TO CUBA!

btw I agree with most of the editorial as well

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:00 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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From all the reviews, it sounds like Bush is in serious trouble. Unless Kerry screws up, looks like the presidency is his.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
King
United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:09 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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It's too early to make that call, Chegitz. Altogether, Bush and his supporters are going to have between $150 million and $170 million to blow on the election, and you can bet that money will be spent. I'm almost tempted to say that Bush could *buy* the election ...

Gatekeeper

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:11
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I saw the interview. It was actually pretty bizarre, IMO. Bush's performance was uninspiring and weak. Peggy Noonan, the arch-conservative columnist, agreed about that, and pointed out that it reads better than it looked, because Bush looked tired, distracted and defensive. He stumbled, bumbled and fumbled his way through answers. I suspect Russert didn't press harder because Bush was already having difficulty.

I'd rate it a failure, because it not only didn't sway anyone's opinion, it is likely to make any (reasonable) conservatives less impressed with Bush. In any event, it didn't do what it wanted to accomplish.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:19
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Gatekeeper: While true, it's also more than likely that Kerry will be the Democratic nominee, and his eschewing the federal matching funds put him in a position to compete moreso than any Democrat in the past. If 2000 is any guide, Republicans need to outspend Democrats almost 2-1 to eke out a win.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:26
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I don't think Republicans will have much trouble outspending.


I'm worried about Kerry becoming President. We need change, and I think that Edwards or Clark would be a much better change.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:34 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Transcipt of the actual interview for those of us who slept late. As I expected, Russet was a puff-interviewer.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4179618/

BustaMike is offline BustaMike
King
You think you're better than me? You've been handling my ass pennies!!!
Nov 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:34 Visit BustaMike's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
I don't think Republicans will have much trouble outspending.


I'm worried about Kerry becoming President. We need change, and I think that Edwards or Clark would be a much better change.


Yep

East Street Trader is offline East Street Trader
Prince
London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:40
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You guys need to be very alert.

This is a man in love with power who staked his political fortunes on demonising terrorists as representing so great a threat that you must give him your unswerving patriotic support.

As the fact that he is not too bright gets clearer and his prospects of the usual shoo in second term dim he will be desperate to refocus attention on the terrorist threat.

He will do two things. He will embark on some further foreign policy expoits (aimed at God knows who) and he will look for some group within the US whom he can tar with the terrorist supporter brush.

He will want to bring some of his Guantanamo Bay methods home.

Expect the strong man stance and the rhetoric about America meaning business and its firm action earning respect to increase.

If it starts to sound hysterical and he manages to ratchet up the patriotism another notch or two it will be time to remember what one of your better people said,
that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I do not fool myself that the width of the Atlantic will retain me my own freedom if you give away yours.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:41 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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EST, he stole the election last time. We know he's fully capable of doing it again. Personally, I think we should be organizing to defend the election.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:42 Visit DanS's homepage!
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I only read the interview. It read well. I thought he made it pretty clear that he erred on the side of caution. Unlike the NY Times, I thought he gave a fairly good flavor of how he came to the decision that he did, which informs us on how he would make decisions in the future.

quote:
If it starts to sound hysterical


Yes, you sound hysterical.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
EST, he stole the election last time. We know he's fully capable of doing it again. Personally, I think we should be organizing to defend the election.
gore was such a pud and a weak candidate... with a dope like bush, it should have never been close enough for florida to matter.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I only read the interview. It read well. I thought he made it pretty clear that he erred on the side of caution. Unlike the NY Times, I thought he gave a fairly good flavor of how he came to the decision that he did, which informs us on how he would make decisions in the future.


Launching a war without evidence isn't caution.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:03 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Yes, that wouldn't be caution. But there was plenty of evidence.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Yes, that wouldn't be caution. But there was plenty of evidence.




Substantive evidence?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:11 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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There was plenty of evidence both ways.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:13 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Substantive evidence?


Yep.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Yep.
assumptions and estimations based on intelligence from 1991... let me ask you DanS, do you make important decisions using 13 year old data?

there was no human intelligence... and Bush completely ignored evidence that didn't agree with his policy (his mind was already made up the day he took office)

You should read Scott Ritter's (UN Weapon Inspector) book. It will educate you about this myth that all the intelligence indicated the picture of Iraq that the president propagated.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:19 Visit DanS's homepage!
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There was too human intelligence. Sounds like you're doing some historical revision, Sava.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
There was too human intelligence. Sounds like you're doing some historical revision, Sava.
Apparantly you didn't read the Kay report or the Carnegie endowment's report... the only "human" intelligence that we had was from defectors who had motives for wanting to feed us intel that would lead the US to war. We had no agents on the ground in Iraq... NO HUMAN INTELLIGENCE. Perhaps you are confusing what "human" intelligence is.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:25 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
the only "human" intelligence that we had


I see that you admit that we had human intelligence. Thanks!

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I see that you admit that we had human intelligence. Thanks!
when people speak of "human intelligence" they are talking about having agents in the field... there's a clear distinction

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:28 Visit DanS's homepage!
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oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
time: 05:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:31 Visit oedo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Substantive evidence?
quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Yep.

care to name them?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by oedo
care to name them?
when presented with facts, the pro-war drum beaters scatter like roaches... or they fall asleep.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:34 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Just go through Colin Powell's presentation to the UN. There was plenty of substantial evidence in that.

Just because we know after-the-fact that, on balance, the evidence that we had pointed only partially to truth doesn't mean that it wasn't solid or substantive evidence.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
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edit: Dan, did you actually read any newspaper after Feb 5th 03?

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 10-02-2004 01:39 Visit DanS's homepage!
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:shrugs:

 
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