13-03-2001 00:52									#1
	Dip 48 "Newbie" fall03 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

French marines invade Wales!
Russian Cossaks sack Warsaw!
Italy and turkey fight on the high seas!
Austrians cannot hold on, lose Rumania yet again!

THE MOVES:

Russia (Napoleon)

A Lvn - War
A Mos S A Lvn - War
(F Ber S English A Den - Kie) cut by french A Kie
___________________________________________

Turkey (Sirotnikov)

F bla - Bul ec
(F gre - ion) bounce italian F Tun
A sev - rum
A ser s A sev - rum
(A alb h A ser) misorder without effect
____________________________________________

Austria (Midshipman) NMR!!!!

A Vie H
(A Rum H) dislodged, retreats to Ukr, Bud, Gal, OTB
___________________________________________

Italy (Mobius)

A TYR > VEN
A TRI S A TYR > VEN
F ADR S A TRI H
(F TUN > ION) bounce turkish F gre
___________________________________________

France (Yoav)

(Hol sup Kie) cut by english A Nor
(Kie to Ber) bounce russian F Ber, dislodged by english F Den, destroyed
Ruh sup Hol
Bur to Bel
Gas to Wal
MAO C Gas to Wal
Ech C Gas to Wal
____________________________________________

England (Taurus)

A Den to Kie
F Bal supp A Den to Kie
F Nth transfer A Nor to Hol
F Hel supp A Nor to Hol
F Edi to Cly
(A Nor to Hol) bounce 2-2
(F Lon to Eng) bounce
____________________________________________

Germany (by Warvoid himself!):

(Mun S A Kie -> Ber) no such move
(A Kie -> Ber) no such unit
A War NMR, retreats OTB
____________________________________________

Russia: build 1
Germany disband 1
England 0
France build 1
Austria 0
Italy build 1
Turkey build 2
____________________________________________

COMMENTS:

Warvoid has told me again that he now left for good. So from now on his remaining army will hold. Let´s see who takes Mun
____________________________________________


DEADLINES:

retreat due tuesday, midnight GMT, post it in this thread. If no retreat will be posted, the unit retreats to Bud. (both closest homecenter and alspabetical order )

winter adjustments due wednesday, midnight GMT

spring 04 moves due next sunday (18th), 6pm GMT.

Have fun!

	13-03-2001 01:27									#2
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Yoav says:
I cannot load Apolyton at the moment, have no idea why, but:
Warvoid supported my enterance into Kiel. Please, if you can check this matter out.
Thank you.


I would like to say that Germany's support is an incorrect one, because he didn't mention which country the unit that he supports belongs, furthermore, he sent an order that made it clear that he though that it was his unit in Kiel.
I am asking not to aprove this false support.

This is too important to bend the rules.

------------------
"But as time goes on, they, as all men, will find that independence was not made for man - that it is an unnatural state - will do for a while, but will not carry us on safely to the end..." Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World"

	13-03-2001 01:45									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

MAAAP!!!!

We need a MAAAPP!!!

I can't think without one! i'm going mad I tell you!



:í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã: :áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í: øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øí êê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëå ã÷â::í:ø íêê÷ è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:ø íêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è ÷ã::áíîëåã ÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áíîëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ã::áí îëåã÷â::í:øíêê÷è÷ ã::áíîëåã÷â:
[This message has been edited by Sirotnikov (edited March 12, 2001).]

	13-03-2001 01:48									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, as always, a nice restart made it all fine
Anyway, the rules are not bent here. It is but obvious that Warvoid meant to support my unit. I don't know why he ordered as he did, perhaps just because he was to apathic to what really happens. But it is clear that we worked this between us earlier. If you wish he can be asked.
The rule for stating which unit you are supporting is not an original one, but a house rule Sahib have put. I understand that house rules are always as strong as original rules, but due to the fact that this is a Newbie game, and everyone's been let off sometime, I think this is my turn, especially since this isn't even my fault. I beg you Sahib, as this is such an important issue, please let us off the hook this time. The rule you have set was appearantly innocently forgotten.

	13-03-2001 01:54									#5
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1) I'm sorry but WarVoid is not a newbie.

2) We can't know if he wanted to support you or maybe he just wants you to think that this is what he wanted (Please remember what our friend Daniel did to me in one of our games).

3) If he was apathic, it's his and your problem. Just like the rules weren't bent for Siro when he made a wrong move, the rules shouldn't be bent here.

Rules are made to be followed by.

------------------
"But as time goes on, they, as all men, will find that independence was not made for man - that it is an unnatural state - will do for a while, but will not carry us on safely to the end..." Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World"

	13-03-2001 01:55									#6
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Sahib, Turkey has 5 units and controls 8 SCs, why does it build only 2?

SCs: Smy, Con, Ank, Sev, Rum, Bul, Ser, Gre.
Units: Rum, Bul, Ser, Gre, Alb.

	13-03-2001 02:05									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I do not wish to make this an argument or a discussion of any sort, this is just for Sahib to decide. But just because I'm that obsseisve I'll reply anyway

1) Irrelevant.

2) He is not Daniel, and has no motive to make me think he wanted to help me without helping me. He IS leaving the game this turn. Plus, he is not that low, he plays with honour and does not turn technicalities to his favour, as I believe all classy Dippers are. Anyway the only way of actually nkowing that would probably be simply asking him...

3) Here you are rather correct. Nevertheless, as I said - this rule was added by Sahib and probably forgotten by Warvoid. In addition, this rule is meant for the comfortability of the GM. It does not have any practical influence on the game itself.

Thank you, Yoav.

	13-03-2001 02:07									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Foolish me, ignore this post.
[This message has been edited by Yoav (edited March 12, 2001).]

	13-03-2001 02:14									#9
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Yoav, don't worry, we ignore all of your posts. :P

j/k

	13-03-2001 02:19									#10
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WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!




I am KING! Finally!!!
And I made my 1000th post in this thread! It was the first post in this thread and I didn't even noticed!!!




*hands out false certificates to recieve free drinks in the Coffee Shop to everyone in sight*

Taurus, you will repect these, right?

	13-03-2001 02:25									#11
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Yoav about number 2.

Even when we will ask him, he might lie.

Siro, I do respect this, but the manager (Mao) might not.

------------------
"But as time goes on, they, as all men, will find that independence was not made for man - that it is an unnatural state - will do for a while, but will not carry us on safely to the end..." Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World"

	13-03-2001 20:14									#14
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Ancy, aint we gents? Here you are. As always please check for accuracy.

http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/ADCN/ADCNF03.gif

	14-03-2001 02:03									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ruffhaus, please be as kind as telling us what you think of this conflict. Should Warvoid's support count as valid?

	14-03-2001 02:33									#16
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Well, it's ultimately for Sahib as the GM to say, but I think Yoav has a point here. Warvoid (Germany) supported A Kiel - Munich. Germany also ordered A Kiel to Munich. Just because Germany submitted an order for a unit that was not his, (A Kiel) wouldn't make the support from Munich invalid.

There are those that require you to cite the nationality of a foreign nation when writing support orders. And while I always do provide it, I do not require it as a GM. But that doesn't make a GM who does require it wrong.


Tough Call. Sahib, it's YOUR call!

	14-03-2001 03:43									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sorry Yoav, but:

1) I explicitely required the nationality of a supported foreign unit to be stated.

2) Warvoid was clearly not supporting your unit but thought that it was indeed his own unit.

3) Therfore it cannot be argued that he CLEARLY wanted to support you and that it was just a typo on his part.

So, the resolution stands as it is.

	14-03-2001 05:19									#18
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Sahib, I should build 3 units!

I proved my case in an earlier post.

	14-03-2001 17:15									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Response to Sahib:
(Sorry for arguing this much, but I think you are being 100% unfair with me, I and another Dip pro' I've spoken to believe that there is no doubt I am correct here):

1) True, but the rulebook also explicitly required the stating of the coast you are entering with a fleet unit and you let Siro off with that. This is much more important than my case as this actually affects the action while stating the nationality has no parctical meaning. Besides, this not being an official rule makes it very easy to forget, and, if I'm not wrong, Warvoid sent the orders to your E-mail at March 10th, giving you enough time to tell him he had an unclear order as you said you usually do.
Besides all that, I say again: every time an unclearity uccured you said something like "this is a newbie game so I'll let you off this time", it happenned to Turkey once and to Italy twice, with much more messy issues, and this is if you don't count all the times you waited for players to send orders so they do not NMR while you should have technically proceeded with the game as you said you would.
I find it extremely unfair to be so hard on me (even when it's not even my fault) while you've been so easy with the others.

2+3) If I ask Warvoid to come here and stricly state that he wanted to support MY entrance into Berlin (I really feel bad about nagging him but if this is the only thing that would help), will you then be convinced?
It is clear that he has no further motives in a game he already left...

Please rethink this. I hate to say that I feel somewhat neglected here, but I just do.
[This message has been edited by Yoav (edited March 14, 2001).]

	14-03-2001 23:40									#20
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1) Siro, sorry, I totally forgot your case: point proven, three builds it is.

2) Yoav: the case is differnt from Siro´s. In his case it was absolutely sure what he intended, no other possibility. Just like Mobius´moves last year.
But in your case it´s different. Warvoid sent me orders for two units, wich he believed were his. One was Ber. He clearly thought it was his OWN unit,not yours. That indicates that he did not merely forgot to state the country name of a foreign unit, but rather wanted to support no foreign unit at all, but his own.
Case denied again. Case closed! (A Mingism )

	15-03-2001 00:03									#21
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I'm sorry to be such a pain in the ***, but your points are rather worng:
First of all, I assume you mean one of these was KIEL.
Second, you did not reply: if I ask Warvoid to come and clerify his intentions, would you then be convinced.
I agreed on this with him earlier. If you don't believe me, hell I'll send you the ICQ history or something. He got confused and added a move. I think you should try to be a little more understanding.

A GM shouldn't be hard or easy with players just so the game goes on as he wants it to. Try to think about it, come on. Do you really believe he meant to support his own unit in, with so little units do you really think he thought he had another one?
Hell, he didn't even plan to send orders, I told him I needed his help, then asked him what I want him to do, he agreed and asked me for your E-mail. Try to be reasonable here. Don't ruin the game because of a stupid technicality.

I will continue to annoy you until either you are convinced, or the deadline comes... but if you do not agree to let me enter Berlin know that I will be very angry and will haunt you until the very last day of your life.

	15-03-2001 00:50									#22
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Yoav, shut up. Sahib does not need to be fair. He is god. I know that you, being a newbie, dont understand this. Deal with your dilemma and move on for Christ's sake. In 20th Century when Ruff stabbed me because I couldn't talk, did I complain to Du Chateau that Ruff misunderstood my intentions and to take the moves back? No. I dealt with it.

Now, please, I am sure I speak for everyone when I ask you to grow up and stop crying over one move. Thank you and goodnight.

------------------
Almighty and Resident God
The more you know the more you realize you dont know. - Shep

	15-03-2001 01:14									#23
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First of all, I am not holding the game for one minute. Up until now I sent all my orders at least 3 days in advance to prevent NMR's, I sent my build as if the resolution is as it is 10 minutes after I saw it.
You on the other hand, NMR'd at least once IIRC, holding the game and twisting it. You are only still here because England decided to keep you here. Besides, just because this move would harm you doesn't mean you need to object it.

Secondly, here you yourself say that this isn't fair, that's all that matters to me. I don't really care that much about one Dip game, I care about being true and right, I'm just that type of guy.

Thirdly, I'm not crying over one move, I'm just trying to convince Sahib I'm right when he uses false information to make his decisions. I accept Sahib's decisions, I just say I find him unfair.

And finally - your example is totally irrelevant as this was a lack of relations between people, I'm sure that if you tryed harder you could have spoken to him and even if you couldn't - that's not even close to this situation. In this case a GM just cancelled an order, and I'm trying to say it was wrong of him to do so.
A GM might be God in Dip games, but that doesn't mean he can do everything because then people will stop playing in his games. I respect Sahib as a GM very much, he not arranging everything in a stupid way like many other GMs do, I'm just trying to discuss and argue the issue, quite obssesively but yet I do not do anything more than saying what I have to say.

	15-03-2001 05:20									#25
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I have to laugh, cause this is funny as all hell. LOL!

Taurus, Yoav, you both kept bugging me to death to "send Sahib this move" and "send Sahib that move". In the meantime the little net time I have is spent toiling as a webmaster elsewhere trying to do HTML programming.

So, you wanna know what I did?

Ok then.

The last person that bugged me got there moves sent to Sahib at the last minute. I believe that was Yoav but I could be mistaken because I gt so many blasted messages a night.

So sorry to both of you but Germany is gone now. The Reich is dead! Long live the head! (....it rhymed )

Have fun with the rest of the game. And don't argue about it.

	16-03-2001 00:57									#26
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OK, I'll take your decision.
It's your call, and even when I think you've been really evil here, I have no other option.
I'll go think about my moves now, this would be tough as my plans were based on even scale forces, and you've changed it to a promised win for England.
By the way, Warvoid: just so I know to myself: did you mean to support my entrance to Berlin or didn't you? I mean, was the order to support "your own" entrance a typ'o or a delibirate misphrased order?

	16-03-2001 01:17									#27
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As I understand his message, he simply copied and pasted the moves you talked about and forgot to cut out your unit's moves.

The message body was probably something like:
Please help me attack Taurus!!! I am lost without you oh great one!
We'll do this:
Mun S A Kie -> Ber
A Kie -> Ber
And then I will rule the world! Mwahahahahaha! I could also talk Italy into letting you live some more as I am King allmighty! I am Yoav, hear me roar!!!

AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!

	16-03-2001 02:50									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Great theory Siro, only one small detail bugs me:
I use "PrvA to PrvB" and not "PrvA -> PrvB"

	19-03-2001 00:24									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Truthfully, i've been so busy lately I don't remember what I did. It had nothing to do with being evil....