12-02-2004 00:45									#31
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Lincoln was the most abusive of the constitution and separtaion of powers of any president, and closest the USA ever came to dictatorship. He was also faced with the grestest challenges of any president.

	12-02-2004 00:55									#32
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The thing that distinguishes Lincoln is not that he had to be abusive inorder to prosecute the war inorder to retain the union but his stance (were it properly implemented) towards restoration. Once the crisis passed he was all in favor of restoring what was usurped.

Interesting that teh times define the greatness of the presidents.

Were it not for the crisis's faced by FDR, Lincoln, and Washington what would their accomplishment be.

For that reason I rate very highly the actions of Teddy. His actions showed leadership and gave transformation to a more modern for of capitalism. All in all a visionary above corruption, but not above ego.

So for the most part GePap I agree with your ratings of the prez's but would defintely have TR inthe top 5 if not top 3. Having Jefferson 4.

	12-02-2004 01:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The thing that distinguishes Lincoln is not that he had to be abusive inorder to prosecute the war inorder to retain the union but his stance (were it properly implemented) towards restoration. Once the crisis passed he was all in favor of restoring what was usurped. Interesting that teh times define the greatness of the presidents. Were it not for the crisis's faced by FDR, Lincoln, and Washington what would their accomplishment be. For that reason I rate very highly the actions of Teddy. His actions showed leadership and gave transformation to a more modern for of capitalism. All in all a visionary above corruption, but not above ego. So for the most part GePap I agree with your ratings of the prez's but would defintely have TR inthe top 5 if not top 3. Having Jefferson 4.

Restoring what was destroyed? No, he was not in favor of restoring slavery, but yes, he was in favor of a more reconciliable reconstruction than what the radical Republicans enacted after they ended Johnson's policy.

	12-02-2004 01:08									#34
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You knew I meant the instruments of due process and liberty. Further the liberation of the slaves showed that while there was a temporary interruption to civil liberties (of states and individuals) during the war more people benefited from a liberty POV than prior to the prosecution of the war.

The second part describing his more moderate approach to restoration I agree with.

	12-02-2004 01:11									#35
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I'd point out that Maryland did in fact vote freely to stay in the Union. After the Union threatened to clamp down if Maryland took a vote on secession, the Legislature withdrew from Annapolis to Frederick, outside of the range of Federal troops. The General Assembly took a vote, and secession was voted down.

	12-02-2004 01:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You knew I meant the instruments of due process and liberty. Further the liberation of the slaves showed that while there was a temporary interruption to civil liberties (of states and individuals) during the war more people benefited from a liberty POV than prior to the prosecution of the war. The second part describing his more moderate approach to restoration I agree with.

I'm just making sure.

There's too many whackos here on Apolyton to take even the most common sense positions for granted.

	12-02-2004 01:29									#37
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I tried finding a website that had a collection of Lincoln's yarns and jokes to show his humorous side, but I could not find such a good enough website.

	12-02-2004 04:11									#38
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Lincoln was a good president; not all he is made out to be by some, but a good man nonetheless.

	12-02-2004 05:31									#39
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Yeah -- he "only" helped our nation survive through a devastating civil war.

	12-02-2004 05:49									#40
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quote: david floyd is hilarious

No, just sad.

Lincoln was a bastard, but Hell, look at what he was dealing with. I'd hope the President would be a bastard when half of the country decided to up and leave!

	12-02-2004 05:56									#41
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Say what you wish, Abraham Lincoln is one of the greatest presidents ever in the American history, period.

No Such Thing As Failure

"There is no such thing as failure. We learn from every human experience, and thereby always succeed in the achieving the results of that learning."

"Your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other thing."

These are the words of a man:

who failed at business at age 21;
was defeated in a legislative race at age 22;
failed again at business at age 24;
overcame the death of his sweetheart at age 26;
had a nervous breakdown at age 27;
lost a congressional race at age 34;
lost another congressional race at age 36;
lost a senatorial race at age 45;
failed in an effort to become vice-president at age 47;
lost another senatorial race at age 49;
and was elected President of the United States at age 52.

This man was Abraham Lincoln.

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character,
give him power."

Abraham Lincoln, United States President

	12-02-2004 06:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Lincoln was a bastard, but Hell, look at what he was dealing with. I'd hope the President would be a bastard when half of the country decided to up and leave!

Why?
If these States decide it (ain't it made possible in your constitution btw?), why should the remaining States try to keep the separatists by force?

	12-02-2004 06:16									#43
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quote: If these States decide it (ain't it made possible in your constitution btw?), why should the remaining States try to keep the separatists by force?

Because once you're in, you can't leave. Would you look favorable on Brittany leaving? Then again you are a commie, your answer may not be the one I'm looking for .

	12-02-2004 06:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because once you're in, you can't leave.

OK, I thought it was made possible in your constitution. It's kind of surprising that a country which gives so many rights to the States doesn't give the right to leave.

quote: Would you look favorable on Brittany leaving? Then again you are a commie, your answer may not be the one I'm looking for .

France is a centralistic country which has united under military might. It has a tradition of being "one and undivisible" dating back to the Third Republic, if not the Revolution.

As a result, we are often criticized by other countries for allowing too little leeway to our provinces, for being too authoritative.

But if the great majority of Bretons wanted independence, and showed it in polls, I think I'd agree with that rather than waging a useless war. I thought such an idea was a no-brainer in a fundamentally federal country such as the US.

	12-02-2004 06:27									#45
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quote: OK, I thought it was made possible in your constitution. It's kind of surprising that a country which gives so many rights to the States doesn't give the right to leave.

It doesn't say anything about leaving, which some interpreted to say you can. Most of us think it means no, you can't. You give up some sovereignty when you come in, even if some Confederate lover says otherwise .

	12-02-2004 07:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Top 5 US preisdents, in order if importance for me: 1. Lincoln 2. Washington 3. Jefferson 4. FDR 5. Jackson (close with TR)

What? Teddy only ranks a 5 and a half?

Teddy's my favorite.

	12-02-2004 07:11									#47
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I think if a state wants to leave, and the majority vote to leave, they ought to be able to leave.

	12-02-2004 07:40									#48
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quote: I think if a state wants to leave, and the majority vote to leave, they ought to be able to leave.

Yeah, and cut BC off from the rest of Canada? Ain't gonna happen.

	12-02-2004 07:42									#49
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Why not? Hawaii and Alaska are cut off from the US and it works.

	12-02-2004 07:46									#50
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Yeah, but they don't have a choice.

Why should BC folks pay customs to ship stuff back east? If Alberta secedes, it has a real effect on all the other provinces, BC in particular.

Now, if you can get the support from all the provinces, then fine, otherwise, you'll have to fight for your independence from Canada.

Are you willing to die for Alberta, Asher?

	12-02-2004 07:47									#51
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Who would kill me? Canada's military?

I'm sure the US would side with Alberta in any attempt of Alberta to secede. Especially with GW as prez.

	12-02-2004 07:50									#52
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quote: I'm sure the US would side with Alberta in any attempt of Alberta to secede. Especially with GW as prez.

'Side with.'

Heh. That's a laugh.

They'll annex you.

You'll be the 51st state of the union, with good ol Dubya as your President.

	12-02-2004 07:52									#53
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Alberta is more likely to vote democrat than republican, if Alberta was part of the US in 2000 I'm sure Gore would've been prez.

And I actually have no problem with being a 51st state, seeing as in a few years I'll be living there anyway due to a horrible Canadian job market thanks to horrible Canadian policies by a horrible Canadian federal government.

	12-02-2004 07:55									#54
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quote: horrible Canadian policies by a horrible Canadian federal government.

So that's why you're voting Liberal this time out?

	12-02-2004 07:56									#55
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I'll be voting for Belinda if she becomes leader of the Conservatives, otherwise I'm abstaining.

	12-02-2004 07:59									#56
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quote: otherwise I'm abstaining.

Why not vote for Stephen Harper and try to change the fiscal policies of Canada?

I'll bet he would stop the federal transfer payments from Alberta.

	12-02-2004 08:01									#57
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Because Stephen Harper is a religious moron. I'd rather have fiscal mismanagement than religious bigotry.

	12-02-2004 08:04									#58
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Abe Lincoln? Give me a break.

	12-02-2004 08:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Top 5 US preisdents, in order if importance for me: 1. Lincoln 2. Washington 3. Jefferson 4. FDR 5. Jackson (close with TR)

In order of importance I'd put Washington first. After all, without him, it's likely Lincoln might just be another loyal British subject...

or another guy other than Washington might have set all the wrong precedents, and we would have another old monarchy or such tyrannical system...

	12-02-2004 08:09									#60
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quote: I'd rather have fiscal mismanagement than religious bigotry.

You'd rather become a loyal subject of Bush than support Stephen Harper? That makes no sense to me. And I like Bush!