12-02-2004 23:04									#31
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Biology lecture #1:
The picture below is a blastocyst, which is what you get when the fertilized egg has divided for a few days. The cells of the "inner cell mass" are those that would eventually develop into a human, if the blastocyst implanted into a healthy uterus. These cells can be removed from the blastocyst and grown in culture. They are then referred to as "embryonic stem cells". These cells have the potential to differentiate into any cell type in the body. You just need to bribe them with the correct mix of growth factors and stuff like that, which btw is the difficult part

Attachment: blastocyst.jpg
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	12-02-2004 23:27									#32
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quote: Well OK, but seeing as I'm 12 years into watching my Mother's slow decline with Parkinson's Disease you'll probably understand why I don't share that opinion. I'm just sorry that it's probably too late for her.

Proximity of feeling doesn't change the ethical considerations.

	12-02-2004 23:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I'm actually quite undecided about these things. I'm not concerned about it because of religious reasons, because I'm atheist. And healing deseases is fine, I'm just concerned about how serious potential abuses of gentech on humans could be and if they can be effectively limited. So in short, I want to know more about chances AND risks of such things before I take a position....

Same here.

I would want to hold back on use of this tech until it had been totally tested.

EG: organs grown corectly without defects, etc.

	12-02-2004 23:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Proximity of feeling doesn't change the ethical considerations.

Do you care to share those high-minded considerations, then, Dan?

	13-02-2004 00:23									#35
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Sava is in top form today. How's that Chick Publications internship coming along, Sava?

ty



quite well spank u very much!

	13-02-2004 01:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild In the end, flesh with always turn to dust. That's why my money is on uploading human minds into machine bodies.

Thanks, Starchild. That's what I'm trying to ask - is it possible to use stem cells to keep the flesh revitalized with new cells? Like every 25 years after age of 50, go in for a stem cell cocktail so new cells can take over cells whose telemores has worn down?

	13-02-2004 01:33									#37
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YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's great.

	13-02-2004 02:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DataAeolus Thanks, Starchild. That's what I'm trying to ask - is it possible to use stem cells to keep the flesh revitalized with new cells? Like every 25 years after age of 50, go in for a stem cell cocktail so new cells can take over cells whose telemores has worn down?

Difficult as every cell in the body, pretty much, would be suffering from telomere erosion. It would be interesting though if you could be treated from time to time with a telomerase activator to lengthen those ends once more. It would probably be a potent asset in fighting senescence.

I don't think there is much more I can add to Starchild's description. Remember though, that system of telomere erosion is one of the bodys most potent anti-cancer strategy. Only if a tumour's telomerase gene is constitutionally active will it proliferate, otherwise it will just die of 'old age' very quickly.

This is a fascinating development. It may eventually possible to grow genetically identical organs in a vector such as a pig and then transplant the organ across. And the recipient can have a few nice pork dinners for a while

	13-02-2004 04:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Proximity of feeling doesn't change the ethical considerations.

Yes it does. It reinforces just how subjective ethical considerations are. I want my mother back.

	13-02-2004 04:35									#40
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I still fail to see why some people think cloning is wrong. Once we can make it as secure as normal reproduction, we should use it.

	13-02-2004 04:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I still fail to see why some people think cloning is wrong. Once we can make it as secure as normal reproduction, we should use it.

Personally, that's because I think it will hinder the clones in becoming full-fledged individuals. And these people are likely to suffer from it.

But for cloning stem cells: I am all for manipulating goo, and growing organs out, as long as said organs are unable to think or to feel.

	13-02-2004 04:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I still fail to see why some people think cloning is wrong. Once we can make it as secure as normal reproduction, we should use it.

Cloning Vats! Actually we already are breeding enough people via the old fashioned method - we don't need cloning to make our population issues worse.

I'm ok with cloning organs but not complete human beings. And for those people who want cloning to bring back a deceased, while the clone may be physically same, I find it doubtful that the clone would have the memories or even personality that the orginial had. Any cloning would have to be done with stem cells, probably and there's no way of replicating memories and personality so the new person would be basically a tabla rasa

	13-02-2004 04:59									#43
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quote: I don't think there is much more I can add to Starchild's description. Remember though, that system of telomere erosion is one of the bodys most potent anti-cancer strategy. Only if a tumour's telomerase gene is constitutionally active will it proliferate, otherwise it will just die of 'old age' very quickly.

Would it be possible to, say, use a virus to temporarily reactivate the telomerase gene?

	13-02-2004 05:08									#44
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IIRC, retroviral engineering worked quite well for the first 15 patients, didn't it? only the death of the 16th caused the stop of treatment during that first spur of tests, right?

	13-02-2004 05:22									#45
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quote: As far as I'm concerned it's a bunch of cells with enormous medical potential

Yes, wonderful reductionist logic.

By the same logic, I should be able to kill you and harvest your organs to save the lives of many other sick people.

	13-02-2004 05:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Personally, that's because I think it will hinder the clones in becoming full-fledged individuals. And these people are likely to suffer from it.

What about identical twins? What about clones not raised by their adult counterpart?

	13-02-2004 05:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, wonderful reductionist logic. By the same logic, I should be able to kill you and harvest your organs to save the lives of many other sick people.

No. But you can ask me for a cell so that it turns into an organ.

	13-02-2004 05:26									#48
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Biology lecture?

Wonderfully paternalistic. You'd make a good doctor.

quote: The picture below is a blastocyst, which is what you get when the fertilized egg has divided for a few days.

Sperm and egg cease to exist at conception. The real biologist would use the term 'zygote'.

quote: The cells of the "inner cell mass" are those that would eventually develop into a human,

Already, the cells are human, because they have human DNA. Very sloppy terminology.

quote: These cells have the potential to differentiate into any cell type in the body.

Which has not been observed or verified, merely postulated.

You can do the same with your own skin cells, to make other cells of different types. This way, you do not need to kill another person for medical research.

	13-02-2004 05:27									#49
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quote: No. But you can ask me for a cell so that it turns into an organ.

Why not? All you are is a sack of cells with incredible medical potential.

Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

	13-02-2004 05:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris What about identical twins? What about clones not raised by their adult counterpart?

Identical twins are different from clones, because their counterpart is not in position of authority, nor is he installed in life. A twin will rarely be designated as "X's twin" (unless the other twin has a very strong personality), while a clone has a good chance of being thought as "X's child" or "X's clone" all the time.

If clones are supposed not to be raised by their adult counterparts, then the problem doesn't arise, except if said clone feels badly about being an imitation, a conform copy of somebody else.

	13-02-2004 05:30									#51
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Ben, I was teasing you. Still, get away with your religious BS, you won't convince me that a bunch of cells are a human being.

	13-02-2004 05:32									#52
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quote: Well OK, but seeing as I'm 12 years into watching my Mother's slow decline with Parkinson's Disease you'll probably understand why I don't share that opinion. I'm just sorry that it's probably too late for her.

Would you kill someone to help your mother, Laz?

	13-02-2004 05:34									#53
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quote: Still, get away with your religious BS, you won't convince me that a bunch of cells are a human being.

Answer my question. Why should we not remove your organs because by reductionist logic, all you are is a sack of cells? We can save many people's lives by doing so.

	13-02-2004 05:36									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Identical twins are different from clones, because their counterpart is not in position of authority, nor is he installed in life. A twin will rarely be designated as "X's twin" (unless the other twin has a very strong personality), while a clone has a good chance of being thought as "X's child" or "X's clone" all the time. If clones are supposed not to be raised by their adult counterparts, then the problem doesn't arise, except if said clone feels badly about being an imitation, a conform copy of somebody else.

I doubt so, Spiffor. When cloning becomes usual, people will get used to it- especially when they see that clones can turn into wholly different beings. Do you really think a 7-years old will fall into depression, because he knows he'll look just like his father when he's 40?

Besides, how is that knowing you're a clone would be so different from being told that you look just like your father? And how can that be so bad that it's worse than being born with AIDS, trisomy, a genetic disease, or simply from an alcoholic mother?

IMO that's a false problem. The real deal will be when we can clone a human mind.

	13-02-2004 05:41									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Answer my question. Why should we not remove your organs because by reductionist logic, all you are is a sack of cells? We can save many people's lives by doing so.

Simple. A foetus becomes human when it's born. Before, it's part of the woman's body.

I know, someday we'll probably be able to grow embryos artificially from the ground up, and that'll bring many more problems. By this time, human life will probably have lost its 'sacred' status. I guess making sure the cells don't suffer will be the last thing we can do.

	13-02-2004 05:42									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I doubt so, Spiffor. When cloning becomes usual, people will get used to it- especially when they see that clones can turn into wholly different beings. Do you really think a 7-years old will fall into depression, because he knows he'll look just like his father when he's 40?

No, but I think the knowledge that he is exactly the same as his father can mess his personal development dramatically. Especially at puberty, as his body changes to looks very similar to his father's, only younger.

quote: Besides, how is that knowing you're a clone would be so different from being told that you look just like your father?

Maybe because this time, it will be true?

quote: And how can that be so bad that it's worse than being born with AIDS, trisomy, a genetic disease, or simply from an alcoholic mother?

I oppose cloning, that doesn't mean I oppose some extent of manipulation on embryos. I'm concerned about individuals, not about some "sanctity of life" or something.
And I wholly support manipulating zygotes / embryos to get rid of diseases.

quote: IMO that's a false problem. The real deal will be when we can clone a human mind.

The body has a huge influence on the development of the human mind. Besides, it seems behaviour is partially affected by genes, so a clone would have his personality hardcoded a little bit.

	13-02-2004 05:44									#57
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quote: A foetus becomes human when it's born. Before, it's part of the woman's body.

What women are these embryos a part of? If we concieve them in a petri dish?

quote: I guess making sure the cells don't suffer will be the last thing we can do.

That fails to address the point. What you are admitting here is that we should kill you and harvest your organs. I'll be sure to remember that for my ill grandmother, should I ever meet you.

	13-02-2004 05:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What women are these embryos a part of? If we concieve them in a petri dish?

I'm perfectly aware of this problem, and that's why I tried to mention it in the first place. I suspect we'll go through a huge scientific debate, and decide for a point in development where the brain of the foetus definitely shows signs of humanity. As long as there are no nerves, however, the cells can't even suffer.

Following YOUR logic, actually, life should not have the right to exist, because it can only feed from other life forms.

	13-02-2004 05:56									#59
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quote: I suspect we'll go through a huge scientific debate, and decide for a point in development where the brain of the foetus definitely shows signs of humanity. As long as there are no nerves, however, the cells can't even suffer.

That's a better argument. What point in development should we draw the line?

quote: the cells can't even suffer.

What if you are under an anaesthetic? Should I be able to kill you because you will not suffer?

quote: life should not have the right to exist, because it can only feed from other life forms.

No. Human rights only apply to members of our own species.

	13-02-2004 05:59									#60
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Since an exact clone is not a new human being, concieved by a spermatozoid and an egg, and since a clone is merely a bunch of organs grown from an already existing person, I'm sure Ben will see nothing wrong in killing cloned human beings for the sake of harvesting them. After all, they are as unimportant as any of your skin cells.

An embryo, on the other hand, ahs an obsolute right to live. You should never dare using it for your own ends, you miserable murderer