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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
That's a better argument. What point in development should we draw the line?
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I definitely don't have an exact answer for this, cuz I suck in Biology. As pointed out earlier, common sense tells that something without nerves can't suffer, so that could be my hypothesis for now.
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What if you are under an anaesthetic? Should I be able to kill you because you will not suffer?
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Useless nitpicking. The anaesthetic is only temporarily overcoming my own nerves. As a full-fledged human, I have 'earned' my right to receive humane treatment.
If you want me to put out a universal statement, then, make it 'A full-fledged and born human earns an automatic and inalienable protection by the X charter of fundamental rights'.
Basically, decide for an Y point where you are a human, and, from that point, your rights become untouchable.
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No. Human rights only apply to members of our own species. |
This remains to be proved. There is no reason why rights which could apply on 'lesser' beings should not. For instance, the 'right to live', stated in its raw form, apply to bacterias, trees, rats, etc. If you want to exclude them, you need separate arguments based on human differenciation.
Trust me, whether we do have the 'right' to kill animals is unclear, esp. when we come to the realization that most basic human rights are based on characteristics shared by mammals.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
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quote:
The anaesthetic is only temporarily overcoming my own nerves.
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No different from the unborn child. She will soon be able to feel just the same as we do. She is only temporarily unable.
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As a full-fledged human, I have 'earned' my right to receive humane treatment.
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How so? How have you earned the right?
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If you want me to put out a universal statement, then, make it 'A full-fledged and born human earns an automatic and inalienable protection by the X charter of fundamental rights'.
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Fundamental rights are not conferred upon by the society, but acknowledged by the society. Misses the whole point.
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Basically, decide for an Y point where you are a human, and, from that point, your rights become untouchable.
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Sure. The best and most definitive standard for personhood would be conception.
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 13-02-2004 at 06:34
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Fundamental rights are not conferred upon by the society, but acknowledged by the society. Misses the whole point.
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You're right, but you were asking me why you shouldn't be hunting for my organs, so I guess law is still the best argument.
I am NOT missing the whole point. Actually, I believe in fundamental rights, but they don't appear at conception- only, somewhat later.
So yes, you do earn your rights by virtue of your existence. What remains to be seen is WHEN, and also, by some extent, whether or not society will acknowledge it (which belongs to another debate).
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Sure. The best and most definitive standard for personhood would be conception. |
No. A plant is more complex than a primitive embryo, and a living being with no brain has no conscience at all. And don't tell me it has one because GOD decided so. It will just immediately end the debate, because I won't be discussing (again) about God with some fundies.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
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quote:
So yes, you do earn your rights by virtue of your existence.
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Existence of an individual human person begins at conception.
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No. A plant is more complex than a primitive embryo,
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Primitive is an arbitrary classification. Embryos can have a beating heart after 21 weeks, and brain function shortly afterwards.
Secondly, the key to the unborn child is not their current abilities, but their capacity to grow and develop. It's like comparing two buckets. Sure, the plant may at full growth and development be more complicated than a single cell, but no one looking at the buckets would give more weight to the plant than the grown human person.
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living being with no brain has no conscience at
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So how does the brain form? Does it pop out of nothingness and become a fully developed brain? No. The brain develops over a period of time, along with the other parts of an embryo, growing in complexity over time.
Secondly, how does one determine when conscience forms? You seem to be very confident.
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pchang
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Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DataAeolus
In that case, those human beings would be... human beings which are entitled to basic human rights. They're not animals nor farms to be harvested.
I prefer to clone organs themselves using stem cells instead of growing actual human beings.
EDIT: Let me expand on this some more. I've read about the possiblity of having stem cell banks in which some stem cells are taken from an emybro during a pregnancy. Those cells would be stored and then suppose 25 years later, the person got in an accident and the liver get destroyed or something, doctors can come back to that person's stem cells and use those cells to grow a new liver. The advantage is that since the new liver's from the same stem cells that the body grew from, the body would not reject the liver.
I'd like to take an opportunity to bring up a thought. Hopefully someone with extensive knowledge of biochemistry can help me out here ( I know at least one of you are studying that field!). From what I understand, basically, when one die of old age, it means on the cellular level, cells has been replicating itself so often that the quality of new copies are not as good and eventually the quality is so poor those cells just don't function. (cell A replicates itself into cell A.1 which replicates itself into cell A.2 copying from A.1 not A and so on. Imagine doing that with a paper and a copier. 100th copy wouldn't be as good as the first copy) When the body has so many of cells that are not functioning, the body die. Would it be possible to use stem cells to revitalize the body? Those cells would be closer to orginial copies. Would this enable a person to live longer until basically his brains stop functioning? |
Stem cells can be taken from the placenta and stored after birth. This is already being done, but costs a fiar amount and the parents have to pay. In addition, not all places are set up for this, so you have do decide months in advance to make sure the preparations are in place.
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13-02-2004 06:01
They just exchanged the nucleus of the ovum with the nucleus from a somatic cell and induced it to enter the cell cycle.
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