12-02-2004 21:55									#1
	Turn 176: 610 AD Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Since this hadn't been done yet.

Magnetism

RIP The Great Lighthouse of Hurricane, at the time of her construction, she was our second choice wonder but has served us well in the near 1300 years of her life. She cut turns off both the vox war and allowed us trade with legoland a millenia early.

I propose that we hold the save until after the GoW/ND summit, while doubtful, we might wish to alter something.

	12-02-2004 21:57									#2
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a few more notes, just for posterity, mentioned in other threads:


Lego has switched Jackson to Magellan's, which would trigger the GA if its built next turn.

Lego still needs physics

ND needs physics, monarchy
ND needs iron

GoW needs magnetism

	12-02-2004 23:36									#3
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Yes, we'll wait.

Investigating Jackson takes 178g. We could float that at the summit. If they want to share that, they might want the WM too - that is part of the cost. Can we trade our map? How long since anyone had it?

	12-02-2004 23:40									#4
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what is the chat room for the chat (and pword?)

	13-02-2004 00:07									#5
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Why do we need to investigate Jackson? If we split it 3 ways, I suppose it becomes worthwhile. Give it a shot.

So ND does not need Astonomy. I wonder if they meant Nav or Magnetism?

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 00:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Why do we need to investigate Jackson? If we split it 3 ways, I suppose it becomes worthwhile. Give it a shot. So ND does not need Astonomy. I wonder if they meant Nav or Magnetism? -Arrian

do we need to investigate Jackson? Would it save a turn on anything if they built magellan's next turn? I doubt it. Seems to be more curiosity, but it would provide a clue when they would reach their GA.

	13-02-2004 08:08									#7
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We could do with knowing about Jackson before our prebuild outgrows its bank in 6 turns. Knowing when their GA comes is pretty big. I'd actually like it to be in there, and RAISED by GoW/ND. That'll be good for Stormian defence in the future, and BB can do something more exciting.

If they don't wanna go with it, OK. I'm wondering whether we can extract a lot of gold from ND. They are now the tech laggards, and with us holding the Keys of the Industrial Era we're in a good position to start cashing in.

We've still got nearly 12 hours to play the turn. I'll do it tomorrow lunchtime. Apart from it being very late here, we want to start sitting on the save to allow diplo the time it needs, and for internal discussion. We don want to hurry the turns while this lot is in the air.

Meanwhile - what about the exploration of the Great Unknown to the SE. Send 2 galleys out, or upgrade first for an extra movement point, or sit tight and see what develops first?

	13-02-2004 08:22									#8
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upgrade the galleys, send them out, just make sure they can return in 10 turns.

great job with the chat CH. Things are a bit more interesting around here, can't wait for the war

	13-02-2004 08:47									#9
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Yes that was a good job. The game as some excimnt left in it.

	13-02-2004 18:36									#10
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We still have an hour. I'm not sure about the three northern galleys.

The 2 galleys already coming south can continue, but they're at least 5 turns from a Harbour.

The three northern galleys are even further from a harbour.
It would take them 10 turns just to reach the nearest eastern harbour at what would then be Blizzard.
We can't get these into position for a hypothetical war (which some of the team is strongly opposed to) and explore with them.

The other thing is that we need our units to be replaced by RP's before we can spare an Exped Force, and we need galleys to cover the wall for that unless we do a lot of DW with RP and catapults. RP may have even taken our advise and started mkts instead of units. :sigh: Policy-reveral, and even the hint of it makes turn play very stressfull. We are not in a position to launch anything anytime soon. If we're in, it can only be later.

At least it's only 3 turns as the Galleon and Frigate / Ironclad sail from Blizzard to Sharpehaven.


Exploratory proposal:
send the eastern one 666 towards the darkness
the middle one 888 towards the darkness
the western one south (quickest way wesy is via Eliopolis)

	13-02-2004 18:41									#11
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RP trade deal has expired. They have their own incence now, so we'll just send Furs, and see what they want to do about Iron.

	13-02-2004 18:43									#12
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It is now 20 turns since we made peace with GoW. How about that - and how time flies when the fighting stops.

	13-02-2004 18:52									#13
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Wow, that did go fast.

Great job on the chat, btw. I did read the log.

My thoughts:

I have NO desire to send troops on this adventure. GoW and ND are the civs who should be most worried about Lego, being the #2 and #3 civs. GS is way back at #4, with little realistic hope of actually winning. I am all for promising not to hit ND/GoW in the back, and perhaps assisting via city investigation, but sending troops to Legoland? That's another matter.

Can I get a screenshot of Legoland? Particularly their west coast?

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 18:54									#14
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Re: tech deals...

We need to try and get as much as we can for our techs, but at the same time we need to get those techs to ND & GoW so they can help us with Industrial research. I think they know that, and are counting on buying our tech cheap because of it (ND needs Physics, Mag & ToG, GoW needs ToG, right?). We have no need for MT, so it's all about gold, as far as I'm concerned.

Do we have a sense of what Physics is worth so we can counteroffer ND?

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 19:14									#15
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Vulture knows some German and we counter-offered 800 this morning.

I'd take 700 to get them onboard now, even though full depr' cost is 1200. The value of getting locking Lego out is more than a couple of hundred beakers on a tech we've already got good value out of.

I doubt either of them can get near our tech pace.

Arrian, I know you think an assault on Lego is mad because they [i]should[/b] be able to block their coast, but if they haven't, it would sure as hell get us the ToE at least. Lego will be nowhere near Sci Meth if the attack goes off, and it might not go off without us, which would allow Lego a run at our target.

We have 100 units, which is what Lego need to cover their coast. They have Muskets and Knights to our Pikes and WC's Spears, so they may have less units, and GoW lookouts know better than we do about that coastline. There's Vox too. A landing there sucks units into Invoice and exposes them elsewhere. Then there's all that jungle too - it's not tight like Stormia.


You do, however, have an excellent point about city investigation, and we can't do that if at war, so GoW/ND might well like that one. If that can get us out of it, while keeping them in it, we should try it.

	13-02-2004 19:27									#16
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I had to send the save (made the d-line by 6 minutes) - I'll get a screenie of Lego's W.Coast out later.

I did the exploratory moves with the northern galleys as above.


plus :

6 workers start fortress at Blizz-3

4 other northern workers meet at Diss-6, maybe fortress on mnt next turn
4 southern workers wait at EotS-2
worker near Blizz comes south

We can build another worker in Eliopolis after the lib.
Most northern tiles are irrigated to allow the mnts to be used, but there may be some tile MM wanted later
However, the tech deals have brought rails closer and we'll have a lot less workers than planned, all of which are wanted in the south in 10 turns

	13-02-2004 19:36									#17
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Cort, pretty soon we might want to start assembling workers around Arashi/Tempest, ok? I'd like to see every worker we have in that area at the start of T186 (Steam Power?). EDIT: you already mentioned this, sorry.

As for the military adventure, it's not just that I think Lego will have the coast blocked. They might not have the entire coast blocked. And believe me, I do see value in hitting them. I just think it's ND and GoW that need to do it.

You posted our limitations yourself: we have 2 galleys in the east, 5 turns from a harbor. In the short term, we cannot assist. In the medium term, if we strain, we might be able to drop off ~5 galleon loads of troops (20 units, say 8 musket, 12 cav).

I'm not 100% against it. I'm just REALLY skeptical. I think we need a firm timeframe from GoW/ND. We need to know when they want us there, and then we need to evaluate whether or not we could actually manage it.

Lego needs what 3 techs to get to the IA, right? One of which, Physics, they are probably researching and could have very soon. Once they hit the IA, they gift tech to Vox, and may well get nationalism or steam, both of which are bad for the invasion idea (actually, nationalism might be the real bad one at first). We're talking about ~10 turns here. If GoW/ND want to hit Lego, they need to get a move on. And we cannot possibly react that fast.

They need to start the invasion ASAP. We can always lag behind and land later. If GoW & ND land in the northeast around Lego's major wonder cities, we might just be able to land in the southwest and take a shot at Lego's likely FP location. That does carry a certain appeal. But this business about them needing us, and expecting us to field forces equivalent to their own (MZ said 30/30/30 for Cav, right?) is silly.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 13-02-2004 at 19:43

	13-02-2004 19:39									#18
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Lego pics on the GAUL thread. We'll try and keep Lego discussion on there, and tech discussion on the Current Diplomacy thread.

	13-02-2004 19:52									#19
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edit: reposted to the GAUL thread.

	13-02-2004 20:00									#20
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edit - reposted on the GAUL thread. Doh!

	13-02-2004 20:14									#21
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edit - current diplo deals thread,

	13-02-2004 22:00									#23
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They may be willing to have us send what we can, but I wold think they wil insist we participate with troops. Sending a feint in with 20 units may be good enough.

It is so much to our benefit to have the war go down and the tech trades happen that it is worth the cost.

We must get some land on Lego to be in the running. I would think the Bobs are planning to eliminate Lego if they can. They do not want to see them around for any votes.