12-02-2004 23:22									#1
	Two cities using one square? Put an end to popups!

OK, so I decided to try something in Civ2, to see if it would work. It didn't work (rehoming caravans), but I found myself playing on anyway, using a combo of super science city and ICS.

a while back, I loked at the squares my cities were using and discovered that San Diego is using one of Washington's squares, but so is Washington at the same time!!!!

I was so astonished I decided to post it here

Does anyone know how this sort of thing can happen, or is it just a random bug.

Using Civ2(not TOT or MPGE), with CiC and FW installed, but those add ons shouldn't make a difference, I don't think...

Attachment: aa_b580.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	13-02-2004 00:39									#2
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Are these cities on opposite sides of the numerical "border" (where the map wraps back on itself)?

Seems to me there was something posted about this glitch awhile back, but I've never experienced it.

	13-02-2004 01:16									#3
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My, you have been a busy little ICSer haven't you. Very impressive. Eighteen cities by 580bc!!

Jr is right. This is known by many names including the dateline effect.

The zero meridian moves thru the western edge of your area. It usually runs thru the ocean, so that may be why you haven't noticed this before. What it boils down to is that the game does not recognize cities on different sides of the line. The zero line runs through the forest tile between Baltimore and St Louis.

By accident you have built your cities to take great advantage of this effect. The cities Baltimore, San Diego, and New Orleans (W's) are on the west side of the line. Washington, St Louis, Boston, and Denver are all on the east side (E's). Any of the W's can use any tiles in the E's city radii, not used by the other W's, irrespective of those tiles being used or not by the E cities. And vice versa.

Note that Baltimore is using the irrigated plains and grass used by the E city St Louis and that New Orleans also sees those tiles but they are unavailable because another W city, Baltimore, is using them.

I was a bit stumpted about how you had so many cities sized 2-4 without temples, but this is a warlord game; very different happiness factors from deity.

Good luck with your game.

Monk

	13-02-2004 20:35									#4
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OMG! That's exactly what's going on! the three cities on the other side of the International Date Line are sharing squares shamelessly with those on the other side. I had heard of the IDL before, but only as a possible way to get more specials, I didn't know about the sharing squares business....

BTW, One of the reasons I am able to ICS so bad is that I sometimes build settlers before a phalanx. I set the barbarians to Restless Tribes, so the barbs aren't too bad. three times a group has landed on my peninsula and threatened to wipe out an undefended city. each time I was able to buy them off with some gold, and they went away.

Hmmmnn.... Perhaps I should irrigate that swamp just outside washington so it can share squares with St. Louis...

	13-02-2004 20:50									#5
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Father Beast,

I would not say your ICS was bad, rather good, even extraordinary.

Perhaps this is not what you meant to say...

quote: Hmmmnn.... Perhaps I should irrigate that swamp just outside washington so it can share squares with St. Louis...

Those two cities are both on the same side of the IDL, and neither can reach that swamp. It would be helpful for San Diego though.

When are you planning to explore with boats, find the other civs, and trade??

Monk

	13-02-2004 21:02									#6
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While we're on the subject, what effect does the dateline have on trade routes across it? Are they measured normally as regards distance between the cities, or do you get an unexpected bonus?

	14-02-2004 00:08									#7
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Duke,

you get the normal delivery bonus, but the road/railroad bonus doesn´t work across the date line.

Zenon

	14-02-2004 01:58									#8
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Yep, that was a problem in one of the Early Landing Games.

Here is a good place to ask, as I am losing memory rapidly it seems, what is the distance limit to qualify for the road/RR bonus?? I remember it as 23 steps, but it could be 22, and I don't remember if map size makes a difference.

Monk

	14-02-2004 03:32									#9
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IIRC it is 24< so 23 woould be another way of looking at it.

	14-02-2004 06:11									#10
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At the dateline the pattern for specials is apt to be unusual, although more than 4 per city has never been demonstrated.

The distance between cities for the r/rr bonuses must be no more than 22 squares apart and may not cross the dateline.

	14-02-2004 12:10									#11
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Ah, the Master speaks. Thanks for clarifying that point, Solo.

Hope you are thriving!!

Monk

	14-02-2004 16:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by solo The distance between cities for the r/rr bonuses must be no more than 22 squares apart and may not cross the dateline.

Would it work across the dateline if the map is less than 22 squares wide?

If the distance is simply measured using the two city coordinates, it wouldn't normally work across the dateline because it's too far away.

Or does it really never work across the dateline, because civ2 isn't smart enough to realise the (rail)road connection continues across the dateline?

	14-02-2004 18:04									#13
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Mercator,

Try a test to know for sure, but I doubt that any route across the dateline will work, since distance calculations are used for caravan payoffs across the line and these work correctly.

Monk,

Good to see you! Except for Zenon and myself, I think interest has waned for now in EL games, but things may change. I have managed 499 BC using another random start, so am happy to rest with that goal accomplished.

	14-02-2004 20:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by solo Monk, Good to see you! Except for Zenon and myself, I think interest has waned for now in EL games, but things may change. I have managed 499 BC using another random start, so am happy to rest with that goal accomplished.

499BC?? (probably, you meant AD). Even so, that's superb!!

I've recently played a set in a SXN game. That's about all I can manage for now. Any gameplay is so much fun!! As for others interest, there is a currunt Strat Forumn thread started by Marcel I that you might be able to add something to the mix. Perhaps you can suggest a map for him to try.

As for this one, Father Beast is playing a very different game than Early Landing. Have you looked at his map?? Looks like fun!!

Monk

	14-02-2004 21:17									#15
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Monk,
You're right, I meant San Diego.

quote: Originally posted by Zenon Duke, you get the normal delivery bonus, but the road/railroad bonus doesn´t work across the date line. Zenon

OK, I must be a bit out of touch. What's the r/RR bonus?

	14-02-2004 21:34									#16
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i just happened to be passing by and thought i'd add my 2 cents

quote: Originally posted by solo Mercator, Try a test to know for sure, but I doubt that any route across the dateline will work, since distance calculations are used for caravan payoffs across the line and these work correctly.

maybe i'm missing something, or maybe its my version of MGE, but i tried a simple test (after trying some more complicated ones) and put berlin on one side of the IDL and Leipzig on the other side, and without a road, berlin delivers hides for 44 gp, with a road it delivers 66 gp, and with a railroad connection it delivers 88gp - small map (20x50)

you might note that the only complete road crosses the IDL. I tried originally building depot cities and a road the long way first, but broke that RR connection.

	14-02-2004 22:09									#17
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Maybe it is because the two cities are both German, and therefore, the game doesn't do the same calculation. Most of the previous work I have seen dealt with delivery to a foreign civ.

I fiddled a bit with your save but could not get the Persian settler to build city. Too much jungle out there, I suppose. On a grass map, he might build.

BTW, I got the same payoffs you described.

Monk

	14-02-2004 22:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I fiddled a bit with your save but could not get the Persian settler to build city. Too much jungle out there, I suppose. On a grass map, he might build. Monk

i made the map with just the 3 prime building spots to try and force the game to place the settlers at the IDL for each civ - silly me for thinking that it would work

I'll try in non-MGE with grass and see what happens

	14-02-2004 23:06									#19
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as a followup, in civ 2.42, I get the same results - putting the road and railroad in only across the IDL, i get significantly increased payoffs (48,72,96) moscow to st pete, and (56,83,112) Kiev to Tenochtitlan

Attachment: t_idl1.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	14-02-2004 23:43									#20
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Well, these results are very different from what has happened before in actual games on standard maps. Can't imagine that map style makes a difference or that overlapping city tiles would matter, either.

Would it be too much to ask for you to make a standard medium map with a foreign city more than eight clicks away from the other city on the other side of the dateline??

Curiouser and curiouser.

Monk

	15-02-2004 00:31									#21
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Monk,

Err, yes, that was AD! I looked at Father Beast's game and was wondering how he did it until I noticed it was at Warlord level. A nice little empire and SSC in any event.

After downloading these testson routes, I think I have figured out what is going on. When there is a direct connection between the two cities the payoffs and route bonuses behave as usual.

The dateline only makes a difference when a station city is being used in place of a contiguous connection. The notion that the dateline affects route bonuses originally came from Samson's post about the use of station cities.

Father Beast,

The r/rr bonus is the road and rail bonuses for trade routes when the two cities involved have been connected by a road and/or railroad. The value of the trade routes goes up once these connections have been made.

	15-02-2004 00:53									#22
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couple more updates. i did a standard medium map (50x80) with a island that crossed the idl, and no road bonus was observed.

I then tried another belt continent (medium map), both with and without a depot and a foreign city just on the other side of the IDL. again no road bonus was observed.

only conclusion i can seem to come to is that on the small map (20x50), even though the x coordinates are doubled - ie we have a (39,49), it is still within the minimum distance meet the road bonus reguardless of which route is taken

Attachment: tidl4.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	15-02-2004 01:52									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for doing the extra test, SCG. So, the conventional wisdom holds for "normal" maps. It is funny to create an explorer in Rome and hold down on the mouse cursor over Bejing and have the explorer go off the other way.

@Solo,

One of the EL games had a Zero Line situation, remember?? I tried after that game finished to build a road connection. I basically put roads on all the tiles because I couldn't be sure what the "true path" was. Even roaded there was no bonus; so, it is not just a station situation...if I am recalling everything correctly.

Monk

	15-02-2004 02:07									#24
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Father Beast,

As Solo said road/RR bonus is a factor that increases the value of delivery and ongoing trade routes. Here is a link to the definitive study on the subject of trade bonus factors. Many factors are involved, road/RR being only part of the whole story.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...760#post1373760

Don't worry about the math at first. Just read thru to get a feel for the various factors.

Hope this helps.

Monk

	15-02-2004 02:12									#25
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Thanks SCG! (and great to see I was right, although that doesn't exactly make a lot of difference)

I don't really know anything about trade, so I wouldn't have been able to do any proper testing myself.

	15-02-2004 04:47									#26
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Interesting! I did some tests, too, and it seems that the only reason why the road/railroad bonus does normally not work across the date line is the maximum distance. In my tests the maximum distance on a small or very small map was 21 (not 22 as on medium and large maps). The maximum distance is not calculated across the date line. Therefore a road/railroad connection (or a station) works across the date line, but the bonus only applies if the other city is not more than 21 steps away in the other direction.

Zenon

	15-02-2004 04:54									#27
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Solo,

congratulations on your 499 AD Landing! Would you care to tell us more about it?

Zenon

	15-02-2004 05:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Zenon bonus only applies if the other city is not more than 21 steps away in the OTHER direction. Zenon

Thanks Zenon, for clarifying that point. I capped 'other' in your quote for emphasis as I had to read it several times before it sunk in. Must need a nap. It all makes sense now.

Solo,

I echo Zenon's query; what size map, any surprises or special challenges? Maybe you would consider a new thread with the save and commentary. I doubt you kept a log, but that is no problem.

Monk

	15-02-2004 06:12									#29
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Okay, I will start a thread with the start I used in the game, since it looks like Zenon may want to try it. Maybe some others would like to join in.

Looks like we are getting to the bottom of this r/rr thing. Many researchers bring quick answers to our qeustions.

	15-02-2004 06:20									#30
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Thanks, Solo; I may give it a go as well, though I may not finish.

Monk