13-02-2004 00:46									#1
	Sunshine-MAST Alliance Put an end to popups!

From Togas:

quote: I'd like for us to work out an alliance. This is what we're looking for: Defensive alliance, triggered by either an attack or an impending attack on a city owned by either of our nations Military cooperation, in the event that either of us become the victim of an attack by a 3rd party Continual WM exchanges Pledges of friendship and cooperation Favorable trades and tech cooperation A solumn pledge of peace between us ... anything else you'd like to include? Let me know. Either of us can write it up, but I'd like something simple. We probably should also set a termination date for the alliance, but my team has no interest in ending this any time soon, so the longer the better. --Togas

	13-02-2004 00:48									#2
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Have we already signed an alliance with Tabemono? If not, we should. Ultimately, we may even want to start organizing a 3-way agreement to repell any Latin Lover attack on any of us... and even plan ahead with joint defensive measures, most importantly a joint road network able to move large numbers of troops between our nations for military aid.

Just an idea...

	13-02-2004 19:42									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We don't have anything like that with Tabe.

The deal with SS looks good. Although I'd be a bit concerned about a MPP as getting dragged into a war with SS would suck. I'm confident that this team won't give any one that much of a reason to attack us, our lack of resources means there isn't even that much to gain from attacking us.
The worry would be SS giving LL or Tabe some **** then getting attacked and us getting dragged in.

In reaslitic terms rather than being that much of a deterrent, a MPP with SS would mean we'd have more chance of getting into somekind of conflict quite soon.
MPPs can often be dangerous.

However the defensive boost a MPP would give us would be tremendous, SS have a bigger millitary and this would guarentee we wouldn't get attacked by SS at least. We also need SS to give us horses at some point, this may make them free if it's going to benefit SS defences for us to have them.

We could do with looking at all the angles involved here.
If we can get LL to agree to a lengthy non aggression agreement this would not be as important.

If we were to do this there would have to be somekind of assurances that SS will be nice to everyone and do their upmost to avoid getting attacked (just as we do) even if it means they sometimes don't get the most out of trade deals with other nations. Perhaps even some kind of negotiation on each others diplomacy.

Also the MPP shouldn't be on wars of aggression, if SS start a war somewhere else then get attacked as a result we shouldn't have to join in.

	23-02-2004 09:09									#4
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Chat with Togas:

quote: Togas> REGARDING MAST: Togas> we still haven't finalized anything Togas> we need to at least get some sort of general alliance on the books Togas> and we need to work up a deal for Republic. Arnelos> ok Arnelos> real alliance: VERY GOOD Arnelos> we're willing to share Republic Togas> Republic should be your team's ticket to tech trading heaven Arnelos> I forget what we're getting from Tab for it Arnelos> what can you guys trade for it? Togas> other than any of the stone ages techs Togas> only middle ages tech we have is engineering Arnelos> huh? you have engineering already? Togas> we're scientific Arnelos> oh yeah Togas> get free tech Arnelos> that'd be a fair trade * Arnelos goes to load up the game to look a the tech sit. again Togas> it's not entirely even. I was thinking we trade those two and MAST throws 100g to level it out. Arnelos> we definately do not have gold to spare Togas> we have it. Arnelos> we're going to need a massive jag to sword upgrade if we even want a PRAYER of surviving an LL legionary onslaught Arnelos> we need every drop of money Togas> if it comes to that, we'll give you guys no interest loans. Togas> ? Arnelos> sorry Arnelos> opened too many windows and it wrapped my taskbar... didn't see this window blinking Togas> thoughts? Arnelos> dunno Arnelos> we need money... bad Arnelos> I'm pushing for 100% tax, myself Arnelos> I think we need to do a mass upgrade and SOON Arnelos> everyone else wants to keep REXing and somehow "convince LL not to fight" Togas> you guys should be able to techwhore Rep and with 100% tax, you'll be fine Arnelos> the only convincing to be done is to convince LL to take out TAbe rather than us... but that doesn't solve the problem, really Arnelos> we'll still need a military Arnelos> we have a deck of cards right now Togas> why would LL come after MAST? Arnelos> LL is far more likely to go afer Tabe... but even if they do that (more likely), we have problems Arnelos> such as LL being more than twice the size of either SS or MAST Togas> what's the cost of Jag -> sword? Arnelos> I don't remember Arnelos> PTW versus C3C upgrades constantly mess with me Togas> too bad you have to take that upgrade path. You lose your 2 movement Arnelos> is the PTW upgrade 2 gold per shield? Arnelos> because in that case it's 40 gold Togas> yes Arnelos> ok, 40 gold per sword Arnelos> a lot of money Togas> at that rate, it's probably better to build most of your forces Togas> and you'll have to keep some jags for GA Arnelos> Togas - our manufacturing is pathetic Arnelos> we're actually better off building jags for upgrade Arnelos> hell... poprushing swords would be faster with our flood plains Togas> we both seem to have some pretty lousey land Arnelos> our team is ready to skin Panzer32 alive, actually Arnelos> look what he gave LL Arnelos> in the shape of a heart, no less Togas> yep... Togas> stuck you guys in the desert, gave us "sunny lands" of plains and desert Togas> and then stuck a lot of wonderful terrain just out of reach for us that corruption makes it sorry Togas> what I worry about is if Tab and LL *don't* fight ... we don't have a prayer Arnelos> I'll also note that the LL homeland is the only central part of the map WITHOUT jungle Arnelos> but oh well Arnelos> we're stuck with a shitty map Togas> anyhow, back on track. What to do about Republic & Engineering? Arnelos> just have to make the best of it Arnelos> We'd be willing to owe you the tech points Arnelos> we simply do not have money to spare Togas> that's a lot of tech points Arnelos> how many? Togas> I'll go check right now Togas> republic is 28 Togas> eng is 36 Togas> 8 points Arnelos> that's almost 200 gold Togas> we're only asking 100g Arnelos> I know Arnelos> we don't have it Arnelos> neither in treasury nor will have it anytime soon if we start on upgrades Arnelos> our treasury is 12 gold right now, I think Togas> plus 195g that we have for you. Arnelos> well... upgrading ~14 jags to swords will cost 560 gold Arnelos> we might be eventually able to pay you that 100 gold Arnelos> I don't know what our 100% tax income is Togas> could you give us workers? Arnelos> heh... we have too few Togas> our growth is pretty lousey Arnelos> and how many workers would you want? Togas> 2 Arnelos> hmm... Arnelos> I can ask Arnelos> I figure not, but I can ask Arnelos> we do have flood plains Arnelos> though we're not really using them to their potential Togas> slave trade Togas> issue 2: Alliance Togas> let's get something in writing soon Togas> and if the worker swap doesn't work, we'll figure something else out. Arnelos> ok Togas> do you want me to write something up, or will you? (re: alliance) Arnelos> yes Togas> draft alliance sent to you via PM

	23-02-2004 09:10									#5
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From Togas:

quote: SUNSHINE & MAST FRIENDSHIP PACT Our two teams fully agree in spirit and in word that: If any of our teams' cities is attacked by another nation, or if an attack on a city is clearly impending, this alliance will spring into action. WHEN IN ACTION: Both teams will fully cooperate with our military forces to fight back the attacker and to protect our cities and citizens. Both teams will share intelligence and cooperate in scouting. The team that is not attacked will declare war on the invading nation IF the team that is attacked requests it. The alliance will then do its best to try to win the war through whatever means are necessary. The alliance will continue to be "in action" until the war is ended by agreement by both teams in the alliance. WHEN NOT IN ACTION (and also while allied): Both teams agree: To perform continual WM exchanges To maintain a good friendship and to cooperate diplomaticly. To research different technology whenever practical. To give favorable trades To a solumn pledge of peace between us and that no hostilities of any kind shall occur. To respect each other's borders and to negotiate any border or settlement disputes. signed: Togas, Minister of Friendly Relations for Team Sunshine

	23-02-2004 09:16									#6
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Personally, I'd recommend removing any line in that treaty that is excessively vague.

The one I *know* will cause problems from previous experience is:

"To give favorable trades". This is B.S., so open to interpretation that it's just garbage... favorable to whom?

That's the one I want to get rid of. I'll look more closely at the rest of the treaty later. Lemme know what you guys like/dislike and whether we want to sign one with them AT ALL (I assume we do).

	23-02-2004 23:07									#7
	Tired of ads?

Just a few quick points for the moment,
I'd rather not spend 100 gold on engineering as we really don't need the tech that badly. We've paid for quite a few techs from SS and it really isn't the best use of the money.
Also I remember being told by SS previously that they got monothesism as their free tech. I expect they likely researched engineering recently as they entered the MA a while ago. They most likely used money from us to research it quite quickly.

We have a NAP with LL that will last untill turn 138 IMO that has to take precent over any protection pact (we shouldn't let SS or tabe know we have that NAP just yet though)

	23-02-2004 23:16									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Actually a correction, SS didn't say they got mono as they free tech previously. They did indeed say they got engineering they only said they were researching mono.

	02-03-2004 12:27									#9
	Put an end to popups!

From Togas:

quote: Arnelos, We would like to aquire Republic from MAST. We propose that we trade MAST Engineering and that MAST give us: Republic + 80g. We will accept 4gpt instead, or portions of GPT and gold. We will also accept a worker + 20g. We plan to soon build a city and link up a 2nd source of iron. We will try to hurry that process if MAST is interested in aquiring iron from us. We also plan to link up another source of horses to trade to MAST. We will be happy to offer the resources in exchange for very small gpt deals or for workers. ALSO... We need to formalize and sign our NAP/MPP agreement. Please meet with me in chat so that we can finalize this. --Togas

	07-03-2004 17:46									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Togas sent me the above message to arnelos along with this,

quote: NOTE: I have subsequently been informed that MAST first needs to aquire Currency before Engineering can be aquired. We should arrange for a deal for Currency. Some options: We give Currency + 60g for Republic. We give Currency + Iron (20 turns) for Republic. We give Currency + Horses (20 turns) for Republic. We give Currency + Engineering for Republic + 80g + 2 workers. Please let me know what you'd prefer.

I sent him this back

quote: We'd rather have Monothesism than Engineering really, so that we could research Theology. Do you have Mono yet? What do you plan to research ATM or after mono? Also are Tabemono currently doing Feudalism? Have they already finished it? I'm kinda suspicious of Tabe as I think they have contact with the other 3 civs, but I think that may just be me being paranoid. So who will be researching what in terms of Theo, Invention and Chivalry? We'd like to research one of those to trade around rather than have to pay for techs as people are typically extortionate when selling techs. Anyway hope all in well with SS and that you don't have too long a period of government transition, do you have any luxuries to trade? we'll be a Republic next time the save arrives so will need some luxuries to keep the people happy.

	08-03-2004 01:50									#11
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exchange with Togas

quote: OPD, Looks like there was some confusion on our part. I see that we've received Republic now, but I don't see anywhere in our forum that we agreed on a trade for it. We could trade Monotheism (36) or Engineering (36) for Republic (28) + 80g, but we don't have Monotheism yet. We'll get it in @7 turns. However, we plan to research Theology next and then go straight to Education. Tabemono is researching Feudalism now, and they plan to go to Chivalry. We have no idea what LL is researching as they're not very talkative. We can give you guys Engineering instead and have you go for Invention. No one is going for that tech. Tabemono has confirmed that they found the other continent. We are going to try to get a new WM from them soon and you will also get it as we plan to continue doing our WM exchanges with you. We will have another incense linked up soon ... probably within the next 10 turns. We will also have another source of iron and horses linked up in 10-20 turns. We plan to offer them to you. Oh, and please sign and return the treaty I sent to you. --Togas

reply

quote: Marvelous! In that case Engineering is cool, I guess we'll have a talk with Tabe about Feudalism if you are going for Theo, Going by LL's behaviour I'd say they may also have contact with the other world. In fact judging by the coastline, the sea to the NE of the LL city of Monica would be a likely spot. Anyway, if there is anything we can do for you while you're in anarchy or just in general just ask.

	09-03-2004 15:56									#12
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from Togas

quote: Republic Better proposal: You gave us Republic. We give then Engineering. AND ... You give us Invention (once you have it) We give them Monotheism. That is 72 tech points each. --Togas

	07-05-2004 17:00									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Togas sent me this,

Sunshine & MAST
OPD,

We are offering INCENSE to your people this turn. We have not set a price and invite you to propose a price to us. Your people are our friends and neighbors and so we certainly do not want to make this expensive for you. We want to share our joyous incense with you and peacefully and harmoniously live together.

Please offer us a small GPT deal for the incense and we will happily accept.

We also have iron and horses that we may link up, if you so desire.

We hope that all is well with your people and we hope to continue to share more of our blessings with you as they come available.

--Togas
__________________


we don't really need incense that badly as we've got 2 lux from tabemono, but it will likely allow us to lower our lux rate to 0% as so perhaps we should offer them half the money we save from doing that?

also I think we should send a worker into their territory to help with developments then maybe another one in about 10 turns.
We do need all the workers we can get but I think it would be very good for re-enforcing our alliance. They may even give us horses for free then.