16-02-2004 21:12									#211
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And your point is...?

Just to clarify, I wouldn't use the term predetermined since we live in a probabilistic universe. However, it is predictable.

	16-02-2004 21:16									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And your point is...?

u seemed to be implying that we were all puppets watching the predetermined choices making non-predetermined judgements about them.

but that makes no sense. w/o free will it is all an inevitability, there is no individual. consequence loses all importance.

its just not a very good place to be. u seem to say "we need morality to make a society." but that again seems inane. what does society matter? is there some reason we need a society? its like saying one rock is somehow inferior to two rocks.

	16-02-2004 21:16									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BTW, it seems to me that if everything is determined by conditions, there is no right and wrong.

Nope. If a dog bites you, is it right or wrong? If a paedophile rapes a little boy, is it right or wrong? A determinist would tell you there isn't much difference between these actions.
The problem- as stated by Agathon- is that people tend to link right and wrong with the correponding punishment

quote: Seems I see the liberal philosophy of moral relativism emerging in another form.

The CONSERVATIVES, by defending tradition, are actually being the moral relativists.

	16-02-2004 21:22									#214
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quote: u seemed to be implying that we were all puppets watching the predetermined choices making non-predetermined judgements about them.

Where did I say that?

quote: but that makes no sense. w/o free will it is all an inevitability

I don't like the term "inevitably" because again, we live in a probabilistic universe. But basically, yes.

quote: , there is no individual.

If you mean by an individual, something with free will, then yes. However, that's not what I'd call an individual.

quote: consequence loses all importance.

It does? To whom?

quote: its just not a very good place to be. u seem to say "we need morality to make a society." but that again seems inane. what does society matter? is there some reason we need a society? its like saying one rock is somehow inferior to two rocks.

When did I say "we need morality to make a society?"

	16-02-2004 21:23									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, so you say.

Jeese Helms, Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott, etc. Why you would deny this, I don't know, since it's a well known fact of history.

quote: And, BTW, go to hell.

Where di that come from?

	16-02-2004 21:26									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Where did I say that? I don't like the term "inevitably" because again, we live in a probabilistic universe. But basically, yes. If you mean by an individual, something with free will, then yes. However, that's not what I'd call an individual. It does? To whom? When did I say "we need morality to make a society?"

oh god a shotgunner. why is this so popular on this forum? anyway, like I said in my original post. it certainly isnt necessary to have free will. but the consequences of not having it are silly and inane. the lack of choice means we are the equivalent of falling rocks.

there's nothing philosophically exciting about being a falling rock, just like there's nothing philosophically exciting about being the only brain in the universe kept in a jar.

its just inane.

	16-02-2004 21:29									#217
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You make a lot of incoherent claims. That's the only way to respond to that kind of post.

And would you mind putting some substance behind these fatalistic claims?

	16-02-2004 21:36									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Not just that, but when students form conservative groups on campus they are more likely to face opposition from college administrators than if they were to form a liberal group.

In my personal experience, I found the opposite to be true. Leftist organizations were placed under far greater scrutiny (I even had one of my groups turned down).

At DePaul University, which does have a disproportionate number of left-leaning professors, most of the academic power is held by conservatives. It didn't matter if one of my proff's was recommended by almosty his entire department for tenure, the three conservatives who were picked to make the decision turned him down. (One of them, who's field of study was was Portugese colonial Africa even had the gall to say to my proff that Labor History was really too narrow a field to be considered!?!)

	16-02-2004 21:40									#219
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In my personal experience, I found the opposite to be true. Leftist organizations were placed under far greater scrutiny (I even had one of my groups turned down).

How long ago was that?

quote: At DePaul University, which does have a disproportionate number of left-leaning professors, most of the academic power is held by conservatives. It didn't matter if one of my proff's was recommended by almosty his entire department for tenure, the three conservatives who were picked to make the decision turned him down. (One of them, who's field of study was was Portugese colonial Africa even had the gall to say to my proff that Labor History was really too narrow a field to be considered!?!)

There are exceptions of course. I guess the main issue for me is speakers. Speakers at American universities are overwhelmingly left-leaning.

I just want students to have enough input from both sides. This way they can make more informed choices.

	16-02-2004 21:46									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia How long ago was that?

I left school eight years ago. I was in for eleven years, so I remember the begining of the whole leftists are controlling our uni's BS an watched the hue and cry get more shrill, even as my uni got more and more conservative. It wasn't just DePaul. I was paying attention to the other schools in town also: NorthWestern, Loyola, Chicago, Illinois at Chicago, etc.

quote: I just want students to have enough input from both sides. This way they can make more informed choices.

Yeah, cuz the input they get from the rest of society really ha no chance.

	16-02-2004 21:53									#221
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I left school eight years ago. I was in for eleven years, so I remember the begining of the whole leftists are controlling our uni's BS an watched the hue and cry get more shrill, even as my uni got more and more conservative. It wasn't just DePaul. I was paying attention to the other schools in town also: NorthWestern, Loyola, Chicago, Illinois at Chicago, etc.

It may be BS in certain universities, but overall there are far more left-leaning speakers invited to US campuses.

quote: Yeah, cuz the input they get from the rest of society really ha no chance.

Sorry, but I just can't relate to your communist worldview. You're so far to the left that everything must seem right wing.

	16-02-2004 22:15									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I'm shocked that Agathon is against AA. I guess when it only has an effect on other people he is all for it, but when his job is on the line is suddenly transformed into a champion of the marketplace of ideas.

I'm generally against AA except in the form of giving added weight to good students from disadvantaged backgrounds (and that's just reasonable since the backgrounds do have effects).

	16-02-2004 22:38									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You make a lot of incoherent claims. That's the only way to respond to that kind of post. And would you mind putting some substance behind these fatalistic claims?

it is not the only way to respond. shotgunning is infantile, generally leads to extreme tangents and becomes a war of "looking correct" rather than arguing something relevant.

how can u not be fatalistic about a universe that is devoid of choice? I'm responding exactly as I should, feeling exactly as I should. as are u, as are we all. fatalism is inherent to ppl who believe they have no power, but it is probably NECESSARY to those that know they have no power.

	16-02-2004 22:52									#224
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I love this. No one is denying that the left predominates on campus, especially in the social sciences and humanities.

Most of the tories here seem to espouse some kind of conspiracy theory when the truth is that conservative social positions are at odds with reality and heavily depend on religious sources. The exception is economics, where they have done well in the last 20 years. If there were such a left wing conspiracy, then economics departments would be very left wing.

Tories should face the fact that when it comes to social policy, religion is not going to cut it in a secular society and most of what they hold is vestigially religious anyway,

As for everyday social conservatism, I think it is mainly due to ignorance. The primary and secondary education systems in English speaking countries are appallingly bad. Most students leave school without understanding how our society works or what the main political movements actually stand for, or any basic understanding of the basic facts of history. For example, most New Zealanders do not know who Napoleon was, or why World Wars I and II started.

Hence we have to deal with a large proportion of the population who think that taxation is just theft (not in the Libertarian sense either) because they have no idea of the reasons for why a tax system is necessary.

	16-02-2004 23:13									#225
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quote: the truth is that conservative social positions are at odds with reality and heavily depend on religious sources.

Regardless of what they depend on, I wouldn't say they are at odds with reality (whatever that means). Some of their policies have been legislated and some have not. If we make a tally of conservative and liberal policies that have actually been legislated I couldn't say which has had more success...

	16-02-2004 23:51									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, I take it from your post that only religious people can be conservatives.

Nope, but religion plays a strong role in conservatism, even in worldly conservatism, because it has shaped our values and our understanding of the world very, very strongly.

Again, science is about overcoming prejudices, and conservatists being in favor of the status quo / of the old days are less likely to have such a questioning behavior.

	17-02-2004 00:16									#227
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, so you say. Jeese Helms, Strom Thurmond, Trent Lott, etc. Why you would deny this, I don't know, since it's a well known fact of history.

Doesn't prove your statement that the South now controls the Republican Party.

	17-02-2004 00:19									#228
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Last two Repub prezs were from the South. Most of the congressional leadership is from the South, with the sole exception of Hastert.

	17-02-2004 00:23									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'm generally against AA except in the form of giving added weight to good students from disadvantaged backgrounds (and that's just reasonable since the backgrounds do have effects).

But this has nothing to do with Affirmative Action, which, in the US, is solely based on race and has nothing to do with a person's background. Rich black kids have preference over poor white kids under American Affirmative Action.

	17-02-2004 00:34									#230
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Last two Repub prezs were from the South. Most of the congressional leadership is from the South, with the sole exception of Hastert.

Well, GWHB a Southerner?

Can you really consider a person educated at Yale and Harvard to be a Southerner?

While both Bush's are from the South, they are only recently migrated there. If you exclude the Bush's, I don't believe the Republicans have ever even nominated a person from the South as a presidential candidate. In contrast, most of the Democrat presidential candidates of recent vintage are from the South.

But, I agree that Dr. Frist is a Southerner.

	17-02-2004 00:40									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, GWHB a Southerner? Can you really consider a person educated at Yale and Harvard to be a Southerner?

I don't really consider GWHB to be a real Texan, but that's where he made his life and business and was a Congressman. Texas claimed him and his son.

quote: But, I agree that Dr. Frist is a Southerner.

And Cheney, and Gingrich, and Livingston, and Lott, etc.

Democratic leadership seems to vacillate betwen the South, the NorthEast, and California.

	17-02-2004 01:23									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why's that? Morality is the judgement of social interactions as good or bad. The lack of true choice doesn't contradict these judgements in any way.

What is the function of judging?

Why apply value to it?

Personally, I disagree with gravity, and find it immoral.

You don't judge that which is inevitable.

You judge because you have a choice. That is bad, because I could have chosen something else, something better, something good.

	17-02-2004 01:24									#233
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I think there is an internal conflict on the left's definition of consevatism. The definition proposed is a mindless, knee-jerk, dogma-driven anti-philosophy that the status quo is better than anything else.

And yet, there is an admission that conservatives are winning the battle of ideas in economics.

By definition, conservativism has no ideas, no thought, no reason and no philosophy. So, by definition, liberals should win the battle of ideas even in economics as they are contending against semi-literate people, obviously unintelligent, uninformed and more than that, bigotted.

	17-02-2004 01:26									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Ned By definition, conservativism has no ideas, no thought, no reason and no philosophy. So, by definition, liberals should win the battle of ideas even in economics as they are contending against semi-literate people, obviously unintelligent, uninformed and more than that, bigotted.

Pretty much.

	17-02-2004 01:30									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris There is a choice, but that choice is a function of a very complex algorythm. That we could only have made decision X doesn't mean we didn't actually make a decision.

I can't understand how an obviously intelligent person can make such a statement.

Under your argument, we can only THINK we made a decision. That is not the same thing.

quote: With or without free will, that doesn't change much about the absurdity of life.

I'll agree life is absurd either way, but absurd things can still have meaning; if you cannot decide, then life has no meaning for us.

	17-02-2004 01:37									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Pretty much.

Agathon, of course!

	17-02-2004 01:43									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, of course!

	17-02-2004 02:23									#238
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quote: And Cheney

Is Wyoming now considered the 'South'?

And GHWB was definetly NOT a Southerner. Everyone knew he was a Connecticut Yankee even as far as when he ran for President.

	17-02-2004 02:27									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And Cheney Is Wyoming now considered the 'South'?

Ain't he been livin' in Texas?

	17-02-2004 02:55									#240
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking Under your argument, we can only THINK we made a decision. That is not the same thing.

Not the same thing as what? My argument is that we have to assume (act like) we have free will, which doesn't mean we have it.

I'm not sure what's your point here.