18-02-2004 09:38									#151
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Article V of the NATO alliance would be invoked if China attacked the US. There is no way out for Europe if that happened.

	18-02-2004 09:45									#152
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker That wouldn't work. A war requires TWO armies

	18-02-2004 09:46									#153
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Yes there is.

	18-02-2004 10:20									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Article V of the NATO alliance would be invoked if China attacked the US. There is no way out for Europe if that happened.

A Chinese attack on Taiwan with a US response would not invoke the NATO treaty. Interestingly, the 9/11 attack did. Also interestingly, German troops are preparing for fairly large scale ops in Afghanistan.

Now should China directly attack US forces in preemptive strike associated with Taiwan attack then NATO could be called into action. Probably would have no real difference as their role in the type of conflict that it would be would be support...which we would probably get eithier way.

	18-02-2004 10:22									#155
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Would a Chinese attack on a Taiwan defended partially by the US military invoke NATO? (I doubt it would matter though - if the US is mobilizing, something bad enough to get Europe in on our side must have happened.)

	18-02-2004 10:36									#156
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Would a Chinese attack on a Taiwan defended partially by the US military invoke NATO? (I doubt it would matter though - if the US is mobilizing, something bad enough to get Europe in on our side must have happened.)

No. US forces based on or around Taiwan would be considered forward deployed and not part of the defense structure of US. Now say China decided to hit US fleet at its base before or in concert with Taiwan strike, then NATO could be called into play.

	18-02-2004 10:45									#157
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO BTW, has anyone given thought to the fact that Taiwan is one of the leading developers of fusion power? It would seem to follow that they just might have a few suprises in store for the PRC armed forces if it came to invasion.

If they have something along those lines, they will be selling them to the US, not buying military hardware.

	18-02-2004 11:39									#158
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Knowing the Taiwanese, if they had fusion weapons, they'd sell it to the PRC.

	18-02-2004 12:03									#159
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quote: Knowing the Taiwanese, if they had fusion weapons, they'd sell it to the PRC.

Knowing the PRC, they would then give the plans for said fusion weapons to Pakistan, Libya, etc...

	18-02-2004 12:13									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Knowing the Taiwanese, if they had fusion weapons, they'd sell it to the PRC. Knowing the PRC, they would then give the plans for said fusion weapons to Pakistan, Libya, etc...

Give the plans away? Never. They'd sell the plans for a tidy profit, thank you very much.

Of course, knowing the Americans, the US would respond by invading Iran.

	18-02-2004 14:28									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Frozzy Article V of the NATO alliance would be invoked if China attacked the US. There is no way out for Europe if that happened.

There is no rule that state they must help us out it if mean they will be destory by than nuclear exchange.

It I was than Knight with 10 men at arm and my liege lord was under attack an I arrive at near his castle than a 100,000 men are attacking I donot have to be suideabilty to attack 100,000 man with my tiny force and I can go home with my oath fullfill as I did try to help but was unable to.

France, Germany,Italy and other NATO countries donot have to imvole thenself in a war between China and America.

	18-02-2004 14:36									#162
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It also than history fact that when the Truk took Contip from the Eastern Rome Empire in 1453 Eupore stood by without offering any help at all,.

	18-02-2004 16:13									#163
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quote: Give the plans away? Never. They'd sell the plans for a tidy profit, thank you very much.

You must not be reading your news...

quote: Of course, knowing the Americans, the US would respond by invading Iran.

Odds are that much of the technology for Iran's nuclear program originally came from China, as well. It's really too bad we can't just deal with the source of all this proliferation.

	18-02-2004 16:53									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That is not going to happen in the case of a PRC attack on Taiwan. Right now the US military is having a severe problem - mainly in $ - dealing with Iraq. Besides, how many carrier battlegroups were used?

Did you think that Bush was kidding when we had the standoff over your pilot crashing into our spy plane? Or how about Clinton when he deployed a carrier group after China had its tantrum over real democracy in Taiwan?

You are sadly mistaken if you don't think the U.S. will fight to protect Taiwan, and I hope your leaders have more sense than you do regarding what we would do. We aren't using much of our navy right now, as they aren't much use to us in Iraq or Afghanistan. We can shut down every bit of your coast with submarines, and can destroy much more of your urban base than you can of ours in either conventional or nuclear conflict.

	18-02-2004 16:55									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Everybody will be launching nuclear missiles at the US if the US even contemplates in making such a thread, Floyd. Better to get rid of a madman first.

The threat is already made simply by anyone looking at the relative strengths of our arsenals. You are delusional beyond belief if you think anyone is going to come to China's aid in a nuclear war with the U.S. This has to be a troll.

	18-02-2004 16:57									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The US military might is vastly overrated. Vastly.

By any measure it is nonetheless more than a match for China's military everywhere except in China proper, and even there is nuclear weapons come into play it is stronger.

	18-02-2004 17:06									#167
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Seems DaShi may be on to something...

quote: China ups anti-Chen crusade HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Chinese generals have joined the campaign to vilify Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian, a signal that Beijing is mobilizing more resources, including military means, to thwart Chen's alleged "creeping independence" crusade. In a meeting with a military delegation from Macedonia, Defense Minister General Cao Gangchuan blasted Chen's alleged attempt to use referendums as a tool for separatism. "Chen Shui-bian's goal is to damage Taiwan's status quo," the state media on Wednesday quoted Cao as saying. "While flying the flags of 'democracy' and 'human rights,' Chen's objective is to hold referendums to achieve Taiwan independence. His separatist activities have become more deceitful and dangerous." Taipei is due to hold two referendums on March 20, when island-wide polls will take place to determine whether Chen will have another four-year term as president. While the plebiscites in question do not directly address the issue of statehood for Taiwan, Beijing has indicated the referendums presage bolder attempts by Chen and other pro-independence politicians to achieve independence. Political analysts in Beijing said the enhanced involvement of People's Liberation Army (PLA) officers in the anti-Chen campaign was a sign the leadership of President Hu Jintao was stepping up the pressure on the self-ruled island. Hu as well as the Chairman of the Central Military Commission, ex-president Jiang Zemin, had until late last year discouraged members of the top brass from making elaborate public comments on diplomatic and Taiwan-related matters. During defense consultation talks with senior representatives of the U.S. military held in Beijing earlier this month, however, Cao and other PLA officers were vociferous in asking Washington to scale down the sale of arms to Taiwan. Western diplomatic sources have confirmed reports more weapons, troops and provisions have the past month or so been moved into the "frontline" provinces of Fujian and Zhejiang. And civilian and military authorities are expected to take advantage of the upcoming plenary session of the National People's Congress (NPC) to mobilize national support for devoting more resources to the cause of national reunification. "PLA delegates to the NPC will likely be lobbying for a bigger military budget to ensure that Beijing will have all means necessary to thwart Chen Shui-bian's 'pro-independence conspiracy'," a Beijing-based Western diplomat said.

Let's hope UR's bosses in Beijing are smarter than he is.

	18-02-2004 17:13									#168
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So Taiwan is being used as an excuse for increased military spending. I wonder where the Chinese learned that trick from. They sure seem to be catching on to how to manipulate western style democracy.

	18-02-2004 17:18									#169
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Why in god's name would they need to know how to manipulate a "Western-style democracy"? One of the advantages of running a brutal, authoritarian regime is never having to worry about such things.

	18-02-2004 17:31									#170
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But they are trying to project an image of a "kinder, gentler" brutal dictatorship.

Apparently this is once again coming down to PRC showing military might before a Taiwanese vote. Politics as usual. Perhaps a US carrier will just happen to move through the strait as March 20 nears.

	18-02-2004 17:33									#171
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Isn't UR supposed to have a moratorium on China related threads? For his health.

	18-02-2004 17:37									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Isn't UR supposed to have a moratorium on China related threads? For his health.

That speaks volumes about China in itself.

	19-02-2004 01:32									#173
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I think China might be recognizing that leadership in the US is hawkish to the extreme and represents an ideology that would start armageddon in order to achieve it's goals. (PNAC)

from http://www.newamericancentury.org/R...casDefenses.pdf

the PNAC (which currently controls the presidency for all intents and purposes) believes the US should strategize and focus on East Asia.

China is probably aware of the true motives of the US leadership and is seeking to prevent their destruction... saber rattling to the extreme.

	19-02-2004 01:34									#174
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quote: China is probably aware of the true motives of the US leadership and is seeking to prevent their destruction... saber rattling to the extreme.

If YOU are, I am sure THEY are

China schmina, they are just feeling all full of themselves because they put a man in space... Just wait until we put a man on Mars!

	19-02-2004 01:40									#175
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Japh: I'm just trying to think like an uber-paranoid stalinist...

	19-02-2004 01:40									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think China might be recognizing that leadership in the US is hawkish to the extreme and represents an ideology that would start armageddon in order to achieve it's goals. (PNAC) from http://www.newamericancentury.org/R...casDefenses.pdf the PNAC (which currently controls the presidency for all intents and purposes) believes the US should strategize and focus on East Asia. China is probably aware of the true motives of the US leadership and is seeking to prevent their destruction... saber rattling to the extreme.

We would not start Armageddon. Is it OUR fault if they launch? It may be pragmatic to let them have Taiwan, but where does it stop?! What if they told the world to surrender to them, or they'd start nuclear war?

	19-02-2004 01:43									#177
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quote: We would not start Armageddon. Is it OUR fault if they launch? It may be pragmatic to let them have Taiwan, but where does it stop?! What if they told the world to surrender to them, or they'd start nuclear war?

by saying "we" are you including yourself with the Project For a New American Century nutbags?

I know a level-headed American president would never start a world war. But who knows what a pscyhopathic ideologically driven neo-con would do.

	19-02-2004 01:50									#178
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The US would never launch first at China, because even those PNAC people don't want nuclear war (the only exception would be if we were about to lose a war for the US's existence).

	19-02-2004 01:52									#179
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I've been telling all of you for a solid year to get over Iraq.
I told you be thinking China.

China has been the bad guy-backer in the Korean War and in Vietnam.
They've sent up space exploration successfully.

What I suspect is that they'll make a move on South Korea, and likely Japan.
From there, eyes turn to Phillipines and Okinawa.
Possibly a cordoning off of the sea.

Write it down, when you get through calling me a dumb**** again.

	19-02-2004 02:00									#180
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Sloww, China's expansionist ambitions should be obvious to anyone who looks at their history of the last 50 years. Just ask someone from Tibet.