15-02-2004 06:21									#1
	Early Landings Comparison Game #8 Suffering from ads?

Well, since some have requested this, we can start another game. The start provided is a random one with the standard settings for EL games, and I have already finished my own game using it, arriving in 499 AD. I will post my own results when they have been typed up.

Any newcomers are welcome to download the start and give this a try. The deadline for completing this game will be March 30th.

This time we are playing the Sioux, a purple civ. After this one, we will have had an EL game now for each civ color. Remember to have fun!

Rules used for Comparison Games

a) The human player may not tip any huts. What’s a rule without an exception, so in the rare situation where a hut may block a player’s movement, the player must save the game, after which the hut is tipped enough times until it produces a military unit or a nomad, which must then be immediately disbanded. Huts appearing in a radius of any city can be destroyed without reaping any benefit by placing a citizen on the hut’s tile while in the city display.

b) Since the game attempts to prevent caravan and freight re-homing, this exploit is not allowed. Any other ploy or exploit is allowed.

c) As a minimum each player should provide a summary of their game, using the format provided with each game start. Each player is also encouraged to keep a chronological log of their game, listing significant events. The addition of details describing the game and strategic decisions made while playing it add interest, so doing this is very much encouraged. Once a game is completed, a short game summary and the optional log should be posted in the game’s thread. Attached to this post should be a save of the game made showing a completed ship or one on the way to Alpha Centauri.

d) The player posting the best landing date before the deadline will be declared the winner of that game. If the date is the best so far attained in comparison games, it will become the new “official” record.


Summary Format

Governments
Monarchy
Republic
Democracy
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST
Colossus
Copernicus
Isaac's
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's
SETI
Apollo

SSC stats
size 8
size 12
size 21
max. size

Techs
Trade
Invention
Railroad
Automobile
Nuclear Power
Computers
Flight
Space Flight

Key civ contact

AC arrival

The table following each game will contain these stats. Of course, you may not end up building all wonders listed, or use all governments, so just keep track of dates relevant to your own game. More detailed logs and/or written accounts of games will be at the players' discretion. Add as little or as much as you want to the required summary.

Attachment: si_b4000.sav
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

	15-02-2004 06:54									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I forgot to mention that the SSC site is at (31,55), northwest from where the settlers start the game, and my landing date, after checking the log was actually 495 AD, and not 499, as stated above.

ELG #8 Summary

This game was played with the robust Monarchy approach and was completed even before playing ELG #7, but at that time Zenon wanted to try a game using his great start with the Chinese that had an almost ideal SSC site and map. So I put this start and my game using it on the back burner until ELG #7 was completed. Even before playing ELG #7, I was pretty sure Zenon’s start would produce even better landing dates than the one in this game. This game was a nail biter though, because I was just able to squeeze in on the right side of 500 AD. Extensive use of Samson’s “zoom to home city” trick was needed to complete the space ship by 480 AD.

After ELG #7 was completed, I tried a replay using this start, trying to benefit from Zenon’s latest refinements in strategy, and while I was able to pick up techs more quickly, my economy suffered enough that I could not get a ship built in time to better the landing date of my first attempt, so I’ll leave it to you others to see if you can find a way to improve upon 495 AD using this start. This game is unique in that we are our own key civ for its duration.

Governments

Monarchy – 2050 BC
Republic – 525 BC
Democracy – 220 AD

Wonders

HG – 775 BC
MPE – 1050 BC
ST – 400 BC
Colossus – 125 BC
Copernicus – 20 AD
Isaac's – 100 AD
Leo's – 40 AD
Michaelangelo's – 225 BC
Darwin's – 200 AD
SETI – 400 AD
Apollo – 460 AD

SSC stats

size 8 – 400 BC
size 12 – 300 BC
size 21 – 75 BC
max. size – 29 in 100 AD

Techs

Trade – 1600 BC
Invention – 25 BC
Railroad – 180 AD
Automobile – 300 AD
Nuclear Power – 400 AD
Computers – 380 AD
Flight – 400 AD
Space Flight – 460 AD

Key civ contact - 4000 BC

AC arrival – 495 AD

Last edited by solo on 16-02-2004 at 23:49

	22-02-2004 22:02									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

ELG #8 Log

BC years

4000 Little Bighorn
3800 Wounded Knee
3700 Alphabet
3550 Wou – warrior
3400 Code of Laws
3350 Lit – settlers
3150 Cedar Creek
2900 Wou – settlers, Bronze Working, Ced – warrior
2800 Slim Buttes

Slim Buttes was the SSC having a whale, wheat, silk and another special hidden by grassland. There were a few river tiles and only one unuseful mountain tile, making it an excellent site.

2750 Lit – settlers
2650 Sli – warrior
2450 Ceremonial Burial
2400 Three Forks
2350 Wou – settlers
2150 Ced – settlers, Thr – warrior
2100 Lit – settlers
2050 Monarchy, Wou – warrior
1950 Sli – settlers
1850 Lit – warrior, Stony Lake, Killdeer
1800 Currency, Bear Paw
1700 Big Mound
1650 Lit – warrior, Sto – warrior
1600 Trade, Kil- warrior, contact with a Spanish exploring unit, peace, give tech

MPE was postponed for a bit and income was maximized to expand the economy and number of cities as quickly as possible. There was no shortage of excellent city sites for helpers, most of them having access to one or more whales or other useful specials.

1550 Ced – settlers, Big – warrior
1500 Sto – warrior
1400 Sli – settlers, Wou – settlers, Ced – warrior
1350 Thr – food, Bea – settlers
1250 Wou – warrior, Kil – settlers
1200 Big – food, Bea – warrior, Ced – food
1100 Lit – food, Wou – warrior
1050 Lit – Marco Polo’s Embassy, Big – warrior, Romans – trade for Writing, 150 g tribute; Persians – give tech

Besides Writing, MPE provided access to 12 other techs I could trade for later. They were Map Making, Masonry, Pottery, Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Mysticism, Warrior Code, Construction, Feudalism, The Wheel, Polytheism and Mathematics. Several of these usually do not appear so early via MPE, and this good fortune probably made the difference in this game, allowing a pre-500 AD landing. Several AI must have started the game with quite a few free techs.

1000 Sto – dye
975 Literacy, Lit – warrior, Wood Lake. Greeks – trade for Map Making, share maps, 150g tribute

950 Sli – wool, Dead Buffalo, Sto – warrior
925 Big – diplomat, Lit – warrior, Ced – trireme, barb archer bribed, 61g; Woo – warrior
900 Thr – food, Sli – warrior, Bea – trireme, Spanish – give tech, share maps

After trading maps, I could see that Madrid was just within range for setting up a r/rr bonus later on. The helper Stony Lake, to the east of the SSC could also be used as a station city. Besides sharing a whale and wheat with the SSC, this helper had two other whales within its radius.

875 Woo – settlers, Lit – settlers, Dea - warrior
850 Kil – food, The Republic, Ced – food, dye(d) to Arbela – 96g; Spanish – trade for The Wheel, 200g tribute; French – trade for Construction, Pottery, peace, share maps

825 barb horseman bribed, 41g, Bea – warrior, Wou – warrior, Persians – trade for Polytheism, give tech, share maps; Spanish – give tech, share maps

800 Sto – food, Sli – hides, barb leader – 150g, Greeks – give tech
775 Sli – Hanging Gardens, Woo – warrior
750 Big – settlers, Point of Rocks

Point of Rocks was the first of 5 colonies established on the western part of the Persian island. These sites had good commodities and some good trade specials, too. These colonies were along the way to the Japanese, who became the target of many good trades later on.

725 Thr – silk, Sli – we love begins, Wou – hides, Lit – copper, wool(d) to Persepolis, 136g

The Persians were a bit too close for good payoffs, but were easy to reach when some quick gold was needed, which was all of the time.

700 Bea – settlers, Sli – dye, Ced – dye, Philosophy, Monotheism, barb legion bribed, 82g; Spanish – give tech, 150g tribute

The Spanish kept picking known techs to study next, but made up for this by being a good source of tribute.

675 Celts – give tech, share maps; Raging Brook, Japanese – give tech, share maps
650 Kil – gems, Sto – settlers, Running Bear
625 Greeks – 50g tribute, Big – trireme
600 Woo – settlers, copper(d) to Arbela, 72g; French – trade for Masonry, Seafaring, Banking, give tech, share maps; Spanish – 50g tribute

575 Sli – marketplace, Wou – wool
550 Poi – settlers, Bea – beads, Lit – settlers, hides(d) to Paris, 296g; Japanese – give tech, share maps; Greeks & Spanish – 50g tribute each, revolution

Now that the SSC was ready and as much tribute as possible was extracted it was time to switch to Republic and start SSC growth.

525 government to Republic, Run – salt, Rag – settlers, Sli – trireme, Russians – trade for Engineering, hides(d) to Lyons, 176g

500 Big – dye, Thr – silver, Sli – temple, size 4, Medicine, Silver Moon, Wildcat Valley

Wildcat Valley was on an island near the French having access to 3 whales, one of the best colony sites. The French were another very good trading partner.

475 Dea – gems, Sto – hides, Ced – hides, Sli – size 5, dye(d) to Orleans, 312g
450 Kil – dye, Great River, Sli – size 6
425 Sli – hides, size 7, dye(d) to Kyoto, 280g; Celts – give tech, share maps
400 Rag – silver, Woo – dye, Big – beads, Bea – hides, Sli – Shakespeare’s Theater, size 8
375 Sli – aqueduct, size 9, Wou – copper, Astronomy, gems(d) to Lyons, 348g; silk(d) to Orleans, 468g

After a slow start, now trade is starting to hum.

350 Sanitation, Poi – dye, Sli – wine, size 10, Lit – dye, Seven Brothers, French – give tech, share maps

325 Sil – dye, Run – dye, Dea – beads, Kil – settlers, Sto – hides, Thr – dye, Sli – harbor, size 11, Greeks – trade for Bridge Building, give tech, share maps

300 Sli – gems, size 12, dye(d) to Pasargadae, 232g
275 Sli – sewer system, size 13, Woo – trireme, Snake Canyon, Japanese – give tech, share maps

250 Sli – bank, size 14, First Wind, silver(d) to Kyoto, 460g
225 Big – beads, Bea – hides, Sli – Michaelangelo’s Chapel, size 15, University, hides to Paris, 296g

200 Wil – gems, Dea – gems, Sli – library, size 16, Lit – settlers, we love commences in many helpers and colonies, dye(d) to Sli – 216g

175 Sli – wool, size 17, Greeks – give techs, share maps
150 Sna – granary, Sev – silk, Gre – dye, Wil – harbor, Poi – beads, Kil – settlers, Sto – hides, Thr – coal, Sli – cloth, size 18, Ced – settlers, Wou – copper, Persians – give techs, share maps; Spanish – give tech, share maps; dye(d) to Edo, 176g

125 Sil – dye, Sli – Colossus, size 19, wool(d) to Pasargadae, 504g, Fir – trireme, silver(d) to Cordoba, 140g

100 Sev – granary, Gre – harbor, Sli – stock exchange, size 20, Theory of Gravity, gems(d) to Kyoto, 554g, dye(d) to Rheims, 368g, French – give tech, share maps

75 Fir – granary, Rag – coal, Dea – spice, Woo – beads, Big – silver, Sli – wool, size 21, Chemistry, Ced – harbor

50 Sna – coal, Bea – beads, Kil – dye, Sto – beads, Thr – food, Sli – university, size 22, Wou – dye, Lit – gold, dye(d) to Osaka, 208g

25 Sil – beads, Run – salt, Rag – settlers, Dea – dye, Sli – food, size 23, beads(d) to Tours, 368g, French – trade for Invention, share maps

AD years

1 Sli – food, size 24, Gunpowder, Lit – warrior, Kil – warrior, Sto – warrior, wine(d) to Osaka, 606g

20 Poi – salt, Dea – harbor, Sli – Copernicus’s Observatory, size 25, hides(d) to Paris, 220g, Persians – give tech, share maps

40 Sev – silver, Gre – gold, Wil – dye, Dea – dye, Kil – dye, Sto – beads, Sli – Leonardo’s Workshop, size 26, Navigation, Ced – hides, Wou – gems, Lit – wool, dye(d) to Persepolis, 132g, gold(d) to Persepolis, 198g

60 Fir – dye, Sil – coal, Run – beads, Woo – beads, Bea – coal, Sto – salt, Thr – coal, Sli – food, size 27, Explosives

80 Sna – beads, Big – gold, Sli – food, size 28, Wou – dye, cloth(d) to Edo, 641g, Spanish – give tech, share maps, Japanese – give tech, share maps

100 Gre – engineers, Wil – granary, Rag – beads, Sli – Isaac Newton’s College, size 29, Woo – engineers, Bea – engineers, Bea – engineers, MetallurgyCed – hides

SSC growth and wonders were completed simultaneously, making it seem like this was even planned in advance! All that remained was to terraform some of its specials and to set up the rr bonuses with Madrid.

120 Sli – cloth, Spanish – trade for Chivalry, Greeks – give tech, share maps, Japanese – give tech, share maps, wool(d) to Edo, 532g, silver(d) to Orleans, 380g

140 Sto – beads, Physics, Persians – trade for Democracy, gems(d) to Rheims, 408g, coal to Sli – 131g

160 Fir – salt, Sna – salt, Gre – dye, Wil – beads, Sil – gold, Run – salt, Poi – colosseum, Dea – salt, Woo – colosseum, Big – colosseum, Bea – beads, Kil – dye, Thr – dye, Sli – wool, Steam Engine, Wou – gold, Lit – colosseum, silk(d) to Lyons, 204g, Yellowtree

180 Sev – cloth, Rag – silk, Sli – coal, Ced – colosseum, Railroad, wool(d) to Persepolis, 246g

200 Fir – temple, Sli – Darwin’s Voyage, Magnetism, Industrialization, silver(d) to Sli – 204g, revolution, French – give tech, share maps

240 government to Democracy, Kil – colosseum, Sto – colosseum, Sli – oil, Corporation, Yel – transport, wool(d) to Persepolis, 408g, cloth(d) to Edo, 797g, dye(d) to Paris, 224g, coal(d) to Paris, 755g, salt to Sli, 137g

260 Electricity, Fir – gold, Sna – colosseum, Sev – colosseum, Gre – colosseum, Wil – colosseum, Sil – colosseum, Run – colosseum, Reg – colosseum, Dea – colosseum, Woo – temple, Big – salt, Bea – colosseum, Sto – gems, Thr – colosseum, Sli – wool, Ced – wool, Wou – colosseum, Lit – diplomat, Refining, gold(d) to Sli Buttes, 390g; gold(d) to Orleans, 396g; beads(d) to Osaka, 200g; gold(d) to Persepolis, 354g

From here on out it was two techs per turn.

280 Yel – coal, Steel, Sev – oil, Poi – silver, Kil – library, Sto – temple, Sli – dye, Combustion, wool(d) to Edo, 712g; silk(d) to Paris, 438g; dye(d) to Antioch, 224g; Celts – give tech, share maps

300 Electronics, Sna – oil, Run – beads, Rag – copper, Woo – wine, Thr – library, Sli – silver, Ced – spice, Automobile, Sev – transport, Fir – transport, Gre – transport, gems(d) to Orleans, 360g; coal(d) to Tours, 395g; copper(d) to Slim Buttes, 399g; dye(d) to Cordoba, 132g

320 Mass Production, Sil – coal, Poi – superhighways, Dea – oil, Big – oil, Bea – oil, Sli – superhighways, Atomic Theory, Lit – wool, dye(d) to Madrid, 438g; gold(d) to Slim Buttes, 782g; silver(d) to Madrid, 547g; hides(d) to Osaka, 228g; oil(d) to Slim Buttes, 953g

Now 2 of the three SSC routes were receiving the rr bonus with Madrid. The third would be established a few turns later when it was needed. Sli Buttes also started repeating hides now.

340 Leadership, Fir – superhighways, Sna – dye, Sev – superhighways, Gre – hides, Wil – superhighways, Run – food, Rag – superhighways, Woo – gold, Kil – beads, Sto – beads, Thr – oil, Sli – hides,, Ced – food, Tactics, Wou – dye; food to Slim Buttes, oil(d) to Wildcat Valley, 958g; wool(d) to Seven Brothers, 192g; salt to Slim Buttes, 316g

360 Yel – salt, Nuclear Fission, Wil – oil, Sil – superhighways, Dea – transport, Big – superhighways, Bea – superhighways, Sli – hides, Machine Tools, Lit – food, hides(d) to Osaka, 1022g; dye(d) to Valencia, 402g; gems(d) to Valencia, 602g; coal(d) to Wildcat Valley, 300g; oil(d) to Wildcat Valley, 770g; dye to Slim Buttes, 352g; oil(d) to First Wind, 336g; salt to First Wind, 152g; oil(d) to First Wind, 326g

380 Miniaturization, Fir – gold, Sna – superhighways, Sev – oil, Gre – hides, Sil – oil, Run – oil, Rag – silver, Poi – beads, Dea – superhighways, Woo – superhighways, Big – oil, Kil – university, Sto – harbor, Thr – silver, Sli – hides, Ced – temple, Computers, Wou – superhighways, Lit – copper, gold(d) to Slim Buttes, 1056g; oil(d) to Big Mound, 770g; oil(d) to Wildcat Valley, 441g; coal to Wildcat Valley, 72g; oil(d) to Bear Paw, 392g; hides to Madrid, 229g; Greeks, trade for Warrior Code

400 Yel – SETI Program, Nuclear Power, Wil – oil, Sil – oil, Rag – oil, Bea – oil, Sli – wool, Flight, dye(d) to Lyons, 232g; silver(d) to Orleans, 335g; spice(d) to Rome, 122g; gold(d) to Rome, 152g; copper(d) to Kyoto, 136g; silver(d) to Kyoto, 217g; hides(d) to Osaka, 732g; wine(d) to Osaka, 250g; oil(d) to Slim Buttes, 782g; hides to Slim Buttes, 132g; oil(d) to Point of Rocks, 274g; beads to Wildcat Valley, 72g; oil(d) to Raging Brook, 290g; coal(d) to Seven Brothers, 210g; cloth to Slim Buttes, 206g

420 Laser, Fir – salt, Sna – beads, Sev – oil, Gre – hides, Run – food, Poi – silver, Dea – food, Woo – beads, Big – food, Kil – food, Sto – food, Thr – food, Sli – gold, Ced – food, Wou – wool, Lit – food, Radio, wool to Persepolis, 208g; gold(d) to Persepolis, 624g; oil(d) to Slim Buttes, 719g; silver(d) to Tours, 345g; oil(d) to Big Mound, 514g; oil(d) to Wildcat Valley, 514g; salt to Wildcat Valley, 82g

440 Advanced Flight, Sil – beads, Rag – copper, Bea – cloth, Sli – food, Rocketry, Seven Brothers, Greeks – trade for Horseback Riding[/b]; oil(d) to Slim Buttes, 775g; salt to Wildcat Valley, 110g; oil(d) to Wildcat Valley, 560g; oil(d) to Raging Brook, 170g; beads to Raging Brook, 70g; silver to Slim Buttes, 192g

460 fir – food, Space Flight, Sna – oil, Sev – silk, Gre – barracks, Wil – food, Run – food, Rag – oil, Poi – beads, Dea – food, Woo – Apollo Program, Big – dye, Kil – S#1, Sto – S#2, Thr – S#3, Sli – gold, Plastics, Ced – S#4, Wou – S#5, Lit – S#7, Japanese – trade for Warrior Code, oil(d) to Slim Buttes, 750g; silk(d) to Wounded Knee, 323g; gold(d) to Persepolis, 600g; beads to Slim Buttes, 215g

480 Yel - S#7, Superconductor, Fir – S#8, Sna – C#1, Gre – S#9, Wil - S#10, Sil – C#2, Run – S#11, Rag – S#12, Poi – C#3, Dea – S#13, Woo – M#1, Big – C#4, Bea – C#5, Kil – M#2, Sto – M#3, Thr – C#6, Sli – mass transit, Fusion Power, Ced – S#14, Wou – S#15, launch 15-3-3-1-1-1

495 arrival on Alpha Centauri

Attachment: si_a480.sav
This has been downloaded 13 time(s).

Last edited by solo on 22-02-2004 at 22:25

	23-02-2004 09:30									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Nice game, Solo. This has certainly come a long way from the 10 city early Republic style!! Marvellous looking empire you've put together this time. Looks very ICS even.

2600 beakers, almost 1700 from the SSC, and many improvements remaining indicate how sweet the trade revenues were. This is a good map for new folk to work with, I think.

Monk

	23-02-2004 10:20									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by solo Extensive use of Samson’s “zoom to home city” trick was needed to complete the space ship by 480 AD.

I guess this isn't considered a cheat anymore? seems like Xin Yu or Ming listed this among known cheats something like 4 years ago? i can't seem to find it atm - or for that matter the thread where Samson must have rediscovered it...

	23-02-2004 15:31									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Simply unbelievable - a mere 1100 years earlier than my best ever effort!

Stu

	23-02-2004 18:17									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks Monk and SG(1)! We have come quite a long way since beginning these comparison games. The quality of competition made this inevitable.

SCG,

Our ELG rules permit any exploit such "zoom to home city". I'm sure we all have an exploit or two we feel we just can't "stoop" to using, but this comes down to a matter of personal opinions, which can vary widely.

	23-02-2004 19:01									#8
	Support Apolyton

i've not used that particular one in games because i always thought it akin to caravan rehoming as the game attempts to prevent going to a different city at that particular point in the game as well. beyond that, i can see how it would have cut 20-40 years off your landing (maybe just 20 with your # of cities). anyway, was just curious how the discussion went as it seems to be attributed to samson instead of Xin Yu

	24-02-2004 21:43									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Is seems to me this says it all:

"b) Since the game attempts to prevent caravan and freight re-homing, this exploit is not allowed. Any other ploy or exploit is allowed."

The game poster sets the game rules.

	26-02-2004 19:24									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Will someone please explain to me exactly what the "zoom to home city exploit" is?

	26-02-2004 19:42									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think I can explain this one ...

During the start of turn city processing the game allows you to enter a city screen when a white good is completed - if that city contains a unit that belongs to a city further down the build list you can click on that unit and 'zoom to home city' - whilst there you can modify that cities build order - no big deal unless you have just discovered a new tech! but now you can instruct that city to change to whatever that new tech has opened up - and rush it - thus getting your SuperHighway or SS module a full turn before you would normally be allowed.

Have I got this right?

Stu

	26-02-2004 19:47									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

[edit]Yeah - that's exactly right.
Damned quick typists![/edit]


When you have built something and you get the message "City has completed it's improvement", then choose the option to go to the city screen. Once here, you can make the changes you want to production, but instead of leaving the city screen by clicking on exit or pressing return, you go to a unit in that city which has a different home city. In the menu for that unit, you can see "Zoom to home city", which will transfer you to a different city's city screen, without taking account of either the shields or beakers/cash amassed by that city that turn. This way, you can take advantage of discovering a tech earlier in your turn, and change the cities' production to the newly-discovered improvement to get the "AI benefit" of having units and improvements on the very first turn of having a tech.

	26-02-2004 19:48									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Seems that I did - get it right that is!

Beat ya doy!

	26-02-2004 20:57									#14
	Suffering from ads?

It's an "exploit" because it takes arranging cities with units in them from cities higher up the build list (which is processed from bottom to top), sort of like arranging more than 2 Settlers or Engineers to get a work project done in one turn.

Still falls within the rules established by the game starter. So does Airbases on Hills and Food Caravan Trick, I might add.

And for Lafayette: black-clicking and HutFinder...

	29-03-2004 11:32									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Solo,

I have been trying to finish this game but have been delayed due to local pollen/allergy conditions. Since no one else has posted, would you please keep this open for another week, so I can finish?? Thanks.

This will appear lame next to your extraordinary effort. I am roughly 400 yrs. behind you at this point. Made many mistakes along the way. Not so sharp any more. Also, had bad luck with AI help getting Engineering.

Monk

	29-03-2004 20:11									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I got as far as 1000bc before laying it aside to finish a Bloodlust GOTM. I shall try to make some progress this week as well, but I am "on vacation"...

	29-03-2004 23:32									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was beginning to think no one was playing or completing their games, but I guess people are busy and more time is needed.

I will be happy to extend the deadline until April 30.

	30-03-2004 00:12									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks, Solo. That takes the time pressure off. Now, what to do about the lagging performance pressure.

Monk

	03-04-2004 10:49									#19
	Landed 1845 Enter the AD-FREE zone

Since the deadline was extended I thought I'd give it a try. I'm afraid I didn't keep a log, but I remember some of the dates. One date that does stick is that I switched to democracy in 1540 - way late since my single trireme was destroyed by barb's many years earlier, so I should have switched straight away.

I demonstrated to my own satisfaction that you quickly lose any knack for early landing games if you don't play them for a while. I lost my way a little in choosing my technologies to research after discovering trade. Also I failed to build Darwin's - although this may have only cost me about 10 years (5 turns - the difference between the time it took me to research the techs I would have recieved minus the time it would have taken to replace the freights I would have used). I didn't build SETI - by the time I remembered it, I was so close to fusion power that it didn't seem worth while. My most serious error was failing to rush build and deliver much freight in the middle game. On the other hand, my 1845 landing date is pretty much par for me.

I built collossus, copernicus, shakespear, newton and apollo. I delayed apollo until I had enough freights to build a complete spaceship (1822).

My SSC grew to 27 and I tried La Fayette's twin city strategy, but I'm not sure I got much benefit from it.

I was attacked by the Greeks and the Persians after launch, but both of these attacks came after I had built my defences, so they didn't bother me at all.

Good Luck, Monk

RJM at Sleeper's

Attachment: si_a1844.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	03-04-2004 20:09									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hello RJ!!

I too have discovered that my EL skills/thinking has grown a good deal of rust. But, I did remember one thing that might have helped your game, in addition to the trade thing you mentioned. Xenon and Solo, in their later postings, described a plan whereby many more cities were utilized. I think your nine were not enough. Especially helpful are overseas colonies. They give an acceptable alternative delivery site for demanded goods when no AI wants what your cities are selling.

It would have helped to build your SSC on a site with multiple trade specials. Assuming you did not sell them off for ship parts, the SSC lacks a Library and University. That would have boosted science, but, without trade specials, even that doubling only gets you to ~600 beakers. Look again at Solo's save to see what I mean. ~1500 beakers is more desirable, yes??

I am really enjoying this game, even though I am stuffing it up a lot. Hopefully, I will finish soon, too.

Monk

	04-04-2004 00:02									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Good to see you back in these games RJM, and it's also great to see that Monk is able to rejoin us as a player in this one too, since the setup is the best I have found so far among random starts.

	04-04-2004 04:53									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I am so buried in scenarios that I almost forgot this one.
Thank you for extending the playing time. I'll give it a go from tomorrow on.

	04-04-2004 11:42									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Hello RJ!! I too have discovered that my EL skills/thinking has grown a good deal of rust. But, I did remember one thing that might have helped your game, in addition to the trade thing you mentioned. Xenon and Solo, in their later postings, described a plan whereby many more cities were utilized. I think your nine were not enough. Especially helpful are overseas colonies. They give an acceptable alternative delivery site for demanded goods when no AI wants what your cities are selling. It would have helped to build your SSC on a site with multiple trade specials. Assuming you did not sell them off for ship parts, the SSC lacks a Library and University. That would have boosted science, but, without trade specials, even that doubling only gets you to ~600 beakers. Look again at Solo's save to see what I mean. ~1500 beakers is more desirable, yes?? I am really enjoying this game, even though I am stuffing it up a lot. Hopefully, I will finish soon, too. Monk

I intended to use more cities in this game, but I never quite got around to founding them

As far as the location of the SSC is concerned, I don't use hut finder and my general rule is to choose the best available site at the time I build the caravans for the first SSC wonder. I used to take a great deal of time trying to get the "best" site, but my impression is that I need to improve a lot of other things before the SSC site becomes crucial.

My SSC did have a library and university, but I tend to sell such things - along with aqueducts and sewer systems - as soon as I discover fusion power. At it's height (just before the discovery of flight) I was getting over 1,000 beakers per turn from my SSC. BUT on reflection, as well as not building SETI, I forgot to build a research centre

Overseas colonies? Yes, I usually build a few; I think it was the rust in the works that stopped me this time.

So you are right, there are a lot of areas for improvement. However, I think my biggest mistake was not rushing and delivering enough freight.

RJM at Sleeper's

	05-04-2004 11:23									#24
	Attempt 2 - landed 1789 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I thought I'd try it again.

Interestingly I choose the same SSC site and I had even less cities - 7, until near the end when I built an 8th in order to have enough cities to complete the spaceship in 3 turns.

This time I landed in 1789. The improvement was about equally divided between:

a) being able to trade useful techologies early on as a result of building MPE

b) rush building many much more freight and delivering it more quickly.

I was able to build ST much earlier and consequently reach size 22 earlier as well.

The highest research I reached in my SSC was 1070 beakers before flight and 1096 after flight and the research lab.

The AI got a bit frisky earlier, presumably because I was supreme for much of the game. However, apart from a couple of bombing missions and the loss of an engineer to a Spanish crusader, they didn't do any damage.

RJM at Sleeper's

	05-04-2004 18:40									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's a marginal improvement, RJ, but, definitely the right direction. Compare your SSC to Solo's; he had 1680 beakers at the end. Finding a good site and, in this case, getting the rr bonus, make a huge difference. The key to Early Landing success, something I also neglected or forgot in my game, is placing pace of research at the head of the priority list. Every turn one spends without an advance is a delay in the Launch Date. That means resisting the urge to bump taxes to speed the developement of launderettes, and planning ahead for growth by "We Love" so that turns with high Lux are kept to a minimum.

As for the attitude of the AI, I play with open cities most of the game, keeping them safe by regular tech gifting and map trading. Once you get an AI to enthusiastic, depending on their inherent qualities of course, trading maps every turn or two will keep them there, and they will not be a problem. The more aggressive types can be a problem, though.

Good luck with your next attempt.
Monk

	05-04-2004 20:44									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

RJM,

A solid improvement over the first game. Nice going!

Replaying the same start is probably the best way of determining which ideas work best. Back when I was first learning OCC I was a bit more fanatical about this, taking about 10 tries with one of the archived starts to get good results.

	06-04-2004 22:43									#27
	Re: Landed 1845 Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Since the deadline was extended I thought I'd give it a try. I'm afraid I didn't keep a log, but I remember some of the dates. One date that does stick is that I switched to democracy in 1540 - way late since my single trireme was destroyed by barb's many years earlier, so I should have switched straight away.

From this and a couple other comments I thought at first you were doing an OCC! Shipping replacement should be a priority after Magnetism, primarily because the newer ships are faster and carry more, but also to ease the move to Democracy. The only reason to delay Magnetism is if you are exploiting LightHouse in an early naval war.

quote: I demonstrated to my own satisfaction that you quickly lose any knack for early landing games if you don't play them for a while.

I found my Early Landing games improved my general game considerably, although it did atrophy the war-making side of things. I find a bigger difference between the AI attitudes in Classic versus those in MGE.

quote: I lost my way a little in choosing my technologies to research after discovering trade.

Trade is second in my priority list, after either Monarchy (preferred) or early Republic (haven't mastered that yet)

quote: Also I failed to build Darwin's - although this may have only cost me about 10 years (5 turns - the difference between the time it took me to research the techs I would have recieved minus the time it would have taken to replace the freights I would have used).

With Marco Polo, I sometimes defer Darwins to stockpile more freights and let a carefully-tech-gifted AI civ build it "for me". They don't always choose the techs I would like, but I usually get at least one useful thing out of it - of course, if you are not careful, one of those will usually be Communism...

quote: I didn't build SETI - by the time I remembered it, I was so close to fusion power that it didn't seem worth while.

I think it would be helpful for you to at least keep a list of the techs you get (in order), and a note as to whether they were researched or via trade with AI. I get the feeling you could find improvements just by streamlining and re-prioritizing your tech path.

quote: My most serious error was failing to rush build and deliver much freight in the middle game.

This is the heart and soul of the Early Landing game. A good SSC is nice, but Solo and Zenon seem to have better games with more cities doing intensive long-distance trade. The difference seems to come down to one tech per turn (from city science) versus two (city plus trade), and the accompanying gold bonuses help to fund the necessary city improvements and partial RushBuying of high-payoff freights.

quote: I built collossus, copernicus, shakespear, newton and apollo. I delayed apollo until I had enough freights to build a complete spaceship (1822).

First of all, no Marco Polo? MPE lets you tech-gift your KeyCiv, get AI maps, set up alliances (if you get it before you hit Supreme!), pick up critical techs you neglected, and shift the AI research by selective tech-gifting. I would consider MPE essential for any Early Landing attempt.

Secondly, no happiness wonders (HG/Ora/MC/JSB)? If you are not going OCC you should give serious thought to getting at least one of these. Pottery for HG skews your early commodity supplies a bit, and MonoTheism and Theology are off-path to spaceship, but they allow you to grow your secondary cities much more easily, which can be important if you have exhausted most of your commodities supplies in secondary cities. Growing them to size 8 or 12 usually leads to opening up of new commodity supplies, as well as increasing the bonus payoff from deliveries.

quote: My SSC grew to 27 and I tried La Fayette's twin city strategy, but I'm not sure I got much benefit from it.

I'm not going to open your save till I'm done with my game, but there are some tricks to getting Twin Cities working right. You MUST have the "right" RR links between the cities, and you must get SuperHighways in as soon as they are available, and you must grow the non-SSC cities as much as possible and keep their workers on as much Trade as possible (Ocean is nice, but production is tight until Offshore Platforms). You cannot just switch the workers to Trade only for the caravan delivery bonus. Also, you should try to preserve the Trade Routes to AI cities in the SSC from being replaced by lower-value home cities until SuperHighways come along - and if the AI cities are on your continent, keep them even after that. If you are doing it right you should see MAJOR improvements in your secondary cities' Trade Routes, without lowering your SSC TRs to AI cities.

	07-04-2004 11:22									#28
	Re: Re: Landed 1845 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Elephant From this and a couple other comments I thought at first you were doing an OCC! Shipping replacement should be a priority after Magnetism, primarily because the newer ships are faster and carry more, but also to ease the move to Democracy. The only reason to delay Magnetism is if you are exploiting LightHouse in an early naval war.

Yes - normally when I discover magnetism, I bring my previous vessels back to the nearest port; switch to Democracy and build a galleon or 2. In this game I could have switched to Democracy before discovering magnetism since I had nothing at sea.

quote: I found my Early Landing games improved my general game considerably, although it did atrophy the war-making side of things. I find a bigger difference between the AI attitudes in Classic versus those in MGE.

Once again yes. Actually, apart from my turns in the Silly rules game and some play testing of a diskworld scenario, I hadn't played any Civ in the last few months so my whole civ playing was rusty.

quote: Trade is second in my priority list, after either Monarchy (preferred) or early Republic (haven't mastered that yet).

Thrice yes. Monarchy is 1st priority for me, then trade. After that things get distinctly hazy. I like to get mysticism fairly quickly, but should I be making a bee-line for astronomy, the republic, philosophy, construction?

quote: With Marco Polo, I sometimes defer Darwins to stockpile more freights and let a carefully-tech-gifted AI civ build it "for me". They don't always choose the techs I would like, but I usually get at least one useful thing out of it - of course, if you are not careful, one of those will usually be Communism...

That's a cunning plan! I suspect it's a bit like leaving minimal defences in your cities - it sounds risky, but once you've tried it you find that it works fine.

quote: I think it would be helpful for you to at least keep a list of the techs you get (in order), and a note as to whether they were researched or via trade with AI.

You are of course right again. I start out with the best of intentions. Every new technology is noted in my log; every trade delivery is detailed. Then I discover the automobile and I realise the last entry in my log was the switch to monarchy.

quote: I get the feeling you could find improvements just by streamlining and re-prioritizing your tech path.

Actually the muddle in my research priorities after trade is just a symptom of not having a clear strategy in that whole stretch from trade to the corporation.

quote: This is the heart and soul of the Early Landing game. A good SSC is nice, but Solo and Zenon seem to have better games with more cities doing intensive long-distance trade. The difference seems to come down to one tech per turn (from city science) versus two (city plus trade), and the accompanying gold bonuses help to fund the necessary city improvements and partial RushBuying of high-payoff freights.

Every now and then I get trade working properly. In ELG 3 or 4, I had a great sequence going where I rushed a freight in my SSC and delivered it straight away via the railroad and ship chain. This unblocked another commodity in the SSC which I then rushed and delivered. I repeated this for quite a few turns. So that gave me a glimpse of how it can be done. But then I read Solo's log where he is delivering a large number of freights every turn and realise I still have a long way to go.

quote: First of all, no Marco Polo? MPE lets you tech-gift your KeyCiv, get AI maps, set up alliances (if you get it before you hit Supreme!), pick up critical techs you neglected, and shift the AI research by selective tech-gifting. I would consider MPE essential for any Early Landing attempt.

I built it in my second attempt at EL8 and I am converted. Even if I don't yet use it optimally, I certainly gain more in traded techs than it costs to build.

quote: Secondly, no happiness wonders (HG/Ora/MC/JSB)? If you are not going OCC you should give serious thought to getting at least one of these. Pottery for HG skews your early commodity supplies a bit, and MonoTheism and Theology are off-path to spaceship, but they allow you to grow your secondary cities much more easily, which can be important if you have exhausted most of your commodities supplies in secondary cities. Growing them to size 8 or 12 usually leads to opening up of new commodity supplies, as well as increasing the bonus payoff from deliveries.

I don't usually build any of these in my EL attempts. In the middle period (after trade) I find myself wanting to build Copes, Shakes, Ikes and Darwins without enough vans to do them straight away - and not enough money to rush more vans. Once I've got these wonders sorted I'm usually already thinking about hoarding vans for SETI or spaceship parts. On the other hand, looking at my results, perhaps I should give them a try.

quote: I'm not going to open your save till I'm done with my game, but there are some tricks to getting Twin Cities working right. You MUST have the "right" RR links between the cities, and you must get SuperHighways in as soon as they are available, and you must grow the non-SSC cities as much as possible and keep their workers on as much Trade as possible (Ocean is nice, but production is tight until Offshore Platforms). You cannot just switch the workers to Trade only for the caravan delivery bonus. Also, you should try to preserve the Trade Routes to AI cities in the SSC from being replaced by lower-value home cities until SuperHighways come along - and if the AI cities are on your continent, keep them even after that. If you are doing it right you should see MAJOR improvements in your secondary cities' Trade Routes, without lowering your SSC TRs to AI cities.

I noticed this in following Monk's suggestion and looking again at Solo's save. His routes from his SSC to an AI city on the same continent were generating 48 more trade arrows per turn than my routes to a larger city on a different continent. With 100% research and all the research bonuses, that's a lot of extra beakers per turn. I'm going to have to mug up on calculating the route that needs to be roaded and railroaded to get the trade bonus. Also I need to mug up on unblocking trade routes.

Still look on the bright side - if I do everything perfectly today, what's left to learn tomorrow? Thanks for the comments (and thanks to Monk for his as well).

RJM at Sleeper's

	07-04-2004 22:04									#29
	Re: Re: Re: Landed 1845 Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Yes - normally when I discover magnetism, I bring my previous vessels back to the nearest port; switch to Democracy and build a galleon or 2. In this game I could have switched to Democracy before discovering magnetism since I had nothing at sea.

Doing an EL game you have to do everything as quickly as possible. Start a Caravel in a port city that is already supporting one just before you get Magnetism; once the tech is announced (like if you got it with caravan trade, only the bottom city on the list is "processed") it should tell you it is upgrading the production order. RushBuy the rest of the ship and disband the older one (assuming it is empty) if it is further away than one turn to get it into the nearest port. One or even two ship chains is essential to a "just-in-time" flow of caravans or freights overseas, which will fuel both research as well as provide the copious gold you will need for RushBuying.

quote: Thrice yes. Monarchy is 1st priority for me, then trade. After that things get distinctly hazy. I like to get mysticism fairly quickly, but should I be making a bee-line for astronomy, the republic, philosophy, construction? Actually the muddle in my research priorities after trade is just a symptom of not having a clear strategy in that whole stretch from trade to the corporation.

Tech plans are something I enjoy fiddling with. I usually shoot for Philosophy after Trade, which brings in Myst for better Temples (or Oracle *cough,cough*) and Lit for Republic. Getting Philosophy first gives you a free tech, and that sets up Medicine as a next goal. The OCC Guide prioritizes Astronomy for Copernicus, and I've been experimenting with that on and off but usually prefer city growth before maxing my research. Construction usually needs to come close in there to help the WLTCD growth with Colosseums and Aquaducts if Shakes is not available. If the overseas trade is flowing well there should be enough gold coming in to pay for city improvements as needed.

quote: I don't usually build any of these (HG/MC/JSB) in my EL attempts. In the middle period (after trade) I find myself wanting to build Copes, Shakes, Ikes and Darwins without enough vans to do them straight away - and not enough money to rush more vans. Once I've got these wonders sorted I'm usually already thinking about hoarding vans for SETI or spaceship parts. On the other hand, looking at my results, perhaps I should give them a try.

Building caravans fast and deciding whether to use them for overseas trade or wonder-building is the critical set of choices you need to master for faster EL games. A big SSC and 6-10 small secondary cities can get you in before 1500; doing better than that seems to require more, bigger helper cities that can hold their own in research and production. Doing that requires at least one happiness wonder. Again, the extra gold from trade will help fund the extra building program.

quote: I noticed this in following Monk's suggestion and looking again at Solo's save. His routes from his SSC to an AI city on the same continent were generating 48 more trade arrows per turn than my routes to a larger city on a different continent. With 100% research and all the research bonuses, that's a lot of extra beakers per turn. I'm going to have to mug up on calculating the route that needs to be roaded and railroaded to get the trade bonus. Also I need to mug up on unblocking trade routes.

Nothing beats RR Trade Routes to an AI city on your "continent". Twin Cities comes close, because you can slap a SuperHighway in both cities right after you get Auto, which gives you a bit more Base Trade than the AI, and you can grow your own city faster than the AI. The 50% loss due to domestic route is the killer. Sometimes I build an Explorer right after getting Seafaring just to check on future RR routes.

Solo's EL Guide has a good description of unblocking TRs. In OCC games I calculate the Solo Cycle of home and dest cities; in EL games I try to check the cities about once every 4 turns to see if any commodities dont have ().

	08-04-2004 11:57									#30
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Landed 1845 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Doing an EL game you have to do everything as quickly as possible.

Ain't that the truth.

I'd been losing my appetite for Civ a little (well actually I've been playing Neverwinter Nights instead), but with all this good advice, maybe the flame will be rekindled.

Thanks for the comments,

RJM at Sleeper's