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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:34
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Picking up where I left off, what Molly told me of "secular humanism" was not terribly distinctive as an independent philosophy. There were many, many variants on "religion is bad," but most of them unsupported, or if supported, only very poorly.
E.G. religious individuals in the past have done bad things, so religion is bad. Much as chainsaws have been used to kill people, and are therefore bad. The constitution is used now to justify the patriot act, and in the past it fueled McCarthyism. It must be bad. While we're at it, something much like "secular humanism" fueled the Reign of Terror in post-revolutionary France. Is there some part of the Quran, or the Nicene creed, that says it is the purpose of faith to terrorize the populace? Otherwise the argument is just using perversions of the idea of religion as a sort of pre-existing strawman.
Tell me what valuable things secular humanism really stands for, and I'll be glad to discuss it.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Bill Clinton, General asshats
Circle I Limbo The Pope, Parents who bring squalling brats to R-rated movies
Circle II Whirling in a Dark & Stormy Wind Objectivists
Circle III Mud, Rain, Cold, Hail & Snow PETA Members
Circle IV Rolling Weights George Bush
Circle V Stuck in Mud, Mangled River Styx Creationists, NAMBLA Members
Circle VI Buried for Eternity River Phlegyas Qusay Hussein
Circle VII Burning Sands Uday Hussein
Circle IIX Immersed in Excrement Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden
Circle IX Frozen in Ice Design your own hell
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Who forgot any such thing? Did someone assert the Church didn't have any bearing on the development of the Western world? I don't recall reading that.
I'm amazed at how little people realize that Christianity was so heavily influenced by Platonicism myself. |
And by Eastern mystery cults- its similarities with aspects of Mithraism, the influence pagan Hellenized Roman law had on the Benedictine Rule and canon law, the plethora of triple godheads to be found in the Eastern religions, and the lack of scriptural authority for a Christian trinity.
Still at least in Elok I've found a perfect example of what Oscar Wilde was talking about :
'In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience.'
At least I've made it to Elok's ignore list, which means one less god-botherer to be bothered with.
And MrFun- noone, least of all me, is forgetting the contribution of the Christian mediaeval church to Western thought and civilization- you know, the Crusades, the Jewish pogroms, the crushing of the Cathars, the acceptance of Galen as orthodoxy, the resistance to scientific experimentation, the ban on autopsies, the holding back of Western medicine and astronomy and science, wilful obscurantism and replacement of rational thought with mysticism, et cetera, et cetera.
Unless of course you're thinking about Gothic art, Roger Bacon, and monastic schools, and universities created by religious foundations, and so on.
There's a plus and a downside to mediaeval Christianity-had it been less occupied with proving whose god was bigger- Allah or the Christian God, who knows what progress might have been made?
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
And MrFun- noone, least of all me, is forgetting the contribution of the Christian mediaeval church to Western thought and civilization- you know, the Crusades, the Jewish pogroms, the crushing of the Cathars, the acceptance of Galen as orthodoxy, the resistance to scientific experimentation, the ban on autopsies, the holding back of Western medicine and astronomy and science, wilful obscurantism and replacement of rational thought with mysticism, et cetera, et cetera.
Unless of course you're thinking about Gothic art, Roger Bacon, and monastic schools, and universities created by religious foundations, and so on.
There's a plus and a downside to mediaeval Christianity-had it been less occupied with proving whose god was bigger- Allah or the Christian God, who knows what progress might have been made? |
Exactly my point -- there were positive AND negative aspects to the history of Christianity, and other religions.
thanks for agreeing 
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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bishoperics
bishoprics, but please continue, Mr. Fun.
quote:
the Crusades, the Jewish pogroms, the crushing of the Cathars, the acceptance of Galen as orthodoxy, the resistance to scientific experimentation, the ban on autopsies, the holding back of Western medicine and astronomy and science, wilful obscurantism and replacement of rational thought with mysticism,
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So I can cite the Reign of Terror for atheists, and we can call *** for tat.
Now, if we want to make some real progress, why don't we shift to what Christianity teaches.
Christianity is not opposed to science, in fact, most of the scientist you adore and espouse, were once in fact Christians. Remove these from the equation, and you end up much poorer.
Secondly, if you portray Christianity as so opposed to the development of thought, why is it in Europe that the Renaissance picks up steam as opposed to Muslim middle east, or in China? I would argue that it is precisely that Christianity encourages innovation that these technologies flourished in Europe and not elsewhere.
Yes, the Catholic church condemned Galileo. Yes, they also burned heretics. Were either actions Christian? I would argue no.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So I can cite the Reign of Terror for atheists, and we can call *** for tat.
Christianity is not opposed to science, in fact, most of the scientist you adore and espouse, were once in fact Christians. Remove these from the equation, and you end up much poorer.
why is it in Europe that the Renaissance picks up steam as opposed to Muslim middle east, or in China? I would argue that it is precisely that Christianity encourages innovation that these technologies flourished in Europe and not elsewhere.
Yes, the Catholic church condemned Galileo. Yes, they also burned heretics. Were either actions Christian? I would argue no. |
So you can cite the Reign of Terror in Revolutionary France.
I can cite the Reconquista.
I can mention the subjugation of the Aztecs and the Incas.
The extermination of the Caribs.
The hypocrisy of the Puritans in the American colonies, creating their own New Jerusalem in someone else's territory- and killing to keep it.
The Wars of Religion in France.
The Revocation of the Edict of Nantes.
The crusades of the Teutonic Knights.
The seven Western crusades which did so much to reduce the power of Constantinople, kill Jews in mediaeval Europe and the Middle East and of course kill Muslims.
The Thirty Years' War in Western Europe which so devastated whole areas of Germany that the populace resorted to cannibalism.
The witch burnings, the Spanish and Italian Inquisitions, the judicial murder of Michael Servetus by Calvin, the murder of Giordano Bruno, the Marian Martyrs in England, the Catholic martyrs of Elizabethan and Jacobean England, the Cromwellian campaigns in Ireland, the massacre of Protestant settlers by Catholic Irish before the Cromwellian campaigns, the Jewish pogroms in Russia, the Catholic Church's willingness to shield Croatian fascists and fleeing German war criminals, the persecution of the Monophysites by Byzantium, the persecution of the Arians, the persecution of Jews by Roman Christians, the Nazi Holocaust, end product of institutionalized Christian anti-semitism, the absence of any effective resistance from the established German churches to said Holocaust (Denmark saved its Jews- the Danish Church was not exterminated by the Nazis), and so on and so on.
Looks like the killers for God win.
As for steampower- first used by Hero of Alexandria- not notably a Christian, or a European. Unless of course you're referring to the Industrial Revolution in Great Britain, which had exactly what to do with organised Christianity? As opposed, to say, colonialism, mercantilism, scientific experimentation, et al.?
That the Christian Church in mediaeval Europe held back progress is unfortunately a fact- all your apologetics will not undo it. A heliocentric universe had been understood in pagan times, the spherical earth too, even pagan medicine was more advanced in many respects than mediaeval Christian medicine.
The problem was that authors such as Galen and Aristotle were made into orthodoxies, such that they could not be denied, even if in the case of say, Roger Bacon, or Ramon Lull the experimenters had shown that they were wrong in fact. Rather like the victims of Stalin's show trials, because the Church, and therefore Galen and Aristotle, could not be wrong, the scientists disbelieved the evidence of their own experiments, in some bizarre mental disjuncture.
Hardly surprising then that the rediscovery of pagan science needed the intermediaries of the Jews and Muslims (and at a remove, the Indians and Chinese).
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
molly bloom -- I don't think Bennie is arguing that we should deny those horrendous crimes.
I know I'm not. |
The problem with the religionistas is that they say, 'ah. but the Reign of Terror! or Stalin!' as if that's supposed to make non-religionistas roll over and sh!t Mars Bars.
If we're going to condemn secular humanism or any other kind of thought that does not depend on the invention of a Great Walrus of Love divinity, or the Holy Flaming Carrot for its existence, based on the actions of Robespierre or Lavrenti Beria, then I'd say using a similar tactic, Islam and Christianity and Judaism- done and dusted, consign them to the dustbin of history. I fail to see how killing for a particular political belief in Revolutionary France or Stalinist Russia invalidates all non-religious belief. I'm sure Xenophanes must have cheered mightily in his grave at the actions of the Mob in France. Not.
I hadn't noticed that it was a tenet of my personal beliefs that I kill people who disagree with me, even the ones like Elok, who call me a chick and an Aussie, and imagine they can lecture me about the English language and C.S. Lewis.
Let's be charitable and ascribe that to alcohol, youth and inexperience- and of course the pernicious influence of religionism.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:34
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Er, come to think of it, you brought up a very obvious example for religion in general, Ben. The muslim world practically invented science. Algebra, astronomy, the preservation of all the old traditions that jump-started the renaissance...let's not forget Mother Teresa, or MLK Jr., or Gandhi, or all those nuns running orphanages.
Not that it really matters. If we were to judge things based on how easily they were corrupted or perverted, we'd all have to cave to Che and Tass, 'cause there's no tradition that's been abused to cause misery and delay social progress more than laissez-faire capitalism. Which is why we look at an ideal's message itself, not at all the ways people have managed to screw it up.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Geez, atheists and religionists can go on forever "condemning" one another, but it gets no one anywhere. |
Unfortunately the condemnation of religionistas usually comes packaged with a variety of interesting ways to die- stoning, beheading, immuring, burning at the stake, hanging, drawing and quartering, being pressed to death under a door, drowning in a pond in a ducking stool, being roped together and drowned en masse, et cetera, et cetera.
As for Elok's bizarre notion that the Muslim world 'invented' science, one can only hope he bothers to read about the history of science rather than rely on wishful thinking, and do some basic reading on Hellenistic achievements.
I'm quite happy for you to entertain religious beliefs- people can believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, I don't care- it's only when people's religious beliefs are used to limit the freedoms of others that I object. It is not your belief in a god or supernatural beings I object to- it is the uses that such a belief is put to that I find objectionable, and the idea that 'our way' is 'the only way'.
I'm not the one being discourteous- a brief glance at Elok's insult ridden posts should clarify that, and you Mr. Kenobi, have been known to resort to the cheap personal invective yourself- or do I need to remind you about your presumption of my Australian nationality (and the remarks based on that), and the idea that I let the Sceptics' Bible do my thinking for me?
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Very true, but I want to argue in favour for Christianity. Islam may have preserved the science, but it took the Christians to really innovate, and build onto the older ideas. There are many contributions that Islam made to the Greek traditions, particularly in mathematics and astronomy, but then you have to compare them with Kepler, Tycho and Copernicus. Tycho's an interesting case, as we see how the state supports his endeavours, in Denmark to build his massive observatories. |
'Johannes Kepler was born at 2:30 PM on December 27, 1571, in Weil der Stadt, Württemburg, in the Holy Roman Empire of German Nationality. He was a sickly child and his parents were poor. But his evident intelligence earned him a scholarship to the University of Tübingen to study for the Lutheran ministry. There he was introduced to the ideas of Copernicus and delighted in them. In 1596, while a mathematics teacher in Graz, he wrote the first outspoken defense of the Copernican system, the 'Mysterium Cosmographicum'.
Kepler's family was Lutheran and he adhered to the Augsburg Confession, a defining document for Lutheranism. However, he did not adhere to the Lutheran position on the real presence and refused to sign the Formula of Concord. Because of his refusal he was excluded from the sacrament in the Lutheran church. This and his refusal to convert to Catholicism left him alienated by both the Lutherans and the Catholics. Thus he had no refuge during the Thirty-Years War.
Kepler was forced to leave his teaching post at Graz due to the counter Reformation because he was Lutheran and moved to Prague to work with the renowned Danish astronomer, Tycho Brahe. '
http://www.kepler.arc.nasa.gov/johannes.html
Yes, we can see two branches of Christianity offering a lot of support to science there.
Copernicus on his would be detractors:
In the intended Preface of De revolutionibus orbium coelestium Copernicus showed that he was fully aware of the criticisms that his work would attract:-
'Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, badly distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded. '
I wonder which 'scripture' he had in mind, and who might be likely to be quoting from it?
'There was another problem. A stationary Sun and moving Earth also clashed with many biblical passages. Protestants and Catholics alike often dismissed heliocentrism on these grounds. Martin Luther did so in one of his "table talks" in 1539, before De Revolutionibus had appeared. (Preliminary sketches had circulated in manuscript form.) In the long run, Protestants, who had some freedom to interpret the bible personally, accepted heliocentrism somewhat more quickly. Catholics, especially in Spain and Italy, had to be more cautious in the religious climate of the Counter Reformation, as the case of Galileo clearly demonstrates. Christoph Clavius, the leading Jesuit mathematician from about 1570 to his death in 1612, used biblical arguments against heliocentrism in his astronomical textbook.'
http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galile...can_system.html
Well, guess we know now, eh?
Galilieo's struggles:
'All of these discoveries -- and others -- posed yet more direct challenges to Aristotle's idea of the perfection of the heavens -- some Aristotelian astronomers refused to look through Galileo's telescope, others tried to deny what he had seen. The Roman Catholic Church, however, was becoming increasingly concerned -- and a young Dominican, Tommaso Caccini, was the first to denounce Galileo officially and the Copernican theory his observations seemed to support -- from the pulpit during a sermon in the Duomo -- or Cathedral -- of Florence.
A few years later, as concerns mounted, Galileo was officially advised by Cardinal Bellarmino on the Pope's behalf to proceed cautiously and speak only hypothetically about the Copernican theory, but not as if it were actually real.
Galileo returned to Florence and continued work on his book, but now he gave more emphasis to mathematical arguments rather than to experimental or physical arguments- as the Pope wished. But when the book finally appeared in 1632, it raised an immediate storm of protest leading immediately to Galileo's arrest and famous trial by the Inquisition in Rome which found him guilty of having published an heretical book. In the end, Galileo had no choice but to repent and confess that he had gone to far.
He was sentenced to life imprisonment, which he spent, for the most part at his own villa at Arcetri near Florence, under the surveillance of the Inquisition.
Even so, Galileo, in his last years, now undertook his last and perhaps greatest work, his 'Discourses on the Two New Sciences', which has been described as "the cornerstone of modern physics." It was smuggled out of Italy to France, and published in Leyden in 1638.
In this book, Galileo presented the true laws of accelerated motion and falling bodies, as well as the fundamental theory of projectile motion and important applications of mathematics to a host of physical problems.
When Galileo died in 1642, totally blind and almost 78 years old, Pope Urban VIII refused to forget his feud with Galileo, and refused to permit his burial with a suitable monument -- instead, Galileo was buried unceremoniously in the Church of Santo Croce, in Florence. Only a few hundred years later were his remains moved to their present magnificent tomb, opposite that of Michelangelo near the entrance to the church.'
Of course, it took the Catholic Church only 300 years to admit that Galileo might just have been on to a good thing, but what's a little papal infallibility amongst friends?
I wasn't aware, by the way, that 'the state' was Christianity- in fact, looking at the course of European history, the power of the nation state grew from the struggle between the secular authority and Church- between people like Henry VIII, Philip Augustus and various German electors, for instance, and the then popes.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
when people's religious beliefs are used to limit the freedoms of others that I object. It is not your belief in a god or supernatural beings I object to- it is the uses that such a belief is put to that I find objectionable, and the idea that 'our way' is 'the only way'.
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And your argument fails to make the leap from the assertion, that our way is the only way, to the belief that others must be forced, or coerced to believe in what we do.
I argue that yes, our way is the best, but that others must come to agreement not through coercion but convincing, not through force, but through friendship.
quote:
presumption of my Australian nationality
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You have, on occasion, asserted your residence in the beautful, and cosmopolitan city of Sydney.
Secondly, presumption of Australian nationality is only a slur, if one presumes that it is shameful to be Australian.
I do not believe you harbour such shame. 
quote:
the idea that I let the Sceptics' Bible do my thinking for me?
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If that is the worst thing you can say about me, than that is a pretty mild shot.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
But his evident intelligence earned him a scholarship to the University of Tübingen to study for the Lutheran ministry. There he was introduced to the ideas of Copernicus and delighted in them.
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So religion clearly assisted him in his scientific discoveries.
quote:
'Perhaps there will be babblers who, although completely ignorant of mathematics, nevertheless take it upon themselves to pass judgement on mathematical questions and, by distorting some passages of Scripture to their purpose, will dare find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent as despising their criticism as unfounded.
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Now, Galileo does not make the argument that to be Christian hinders his scientific discoveries, but rather, that his detractors are not adhering to the faith they profess! A stunning rebuttal to both them, and to you.
quote:
In the long run, Protestants, who had some freedom to interpret the bible personally, accepted heliocentrism somewhat more quickly.
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A reformation sought to renew the Christian faith, back to the roots of their religion, to restore what had been lost. So, proper Christianity proves beneficial to scientific endeavours.
quote:
I wasn't aware, by the way, that 'the state' was Christianity- in fact, looking at the course of European history, the power of the nation state grew from the struggle between the secular authority and Church
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Then you need to do more reading. The very fact that the pope had temporal power testifies to the concept of Christendom, and the linkages between the church and state.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
I'm quite happy for you to entertain religious beliefs- people can believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, I don't care- it's only when people's religious beliefs are used to limit the freedoms of others that I object. It is not your belief in a god or supernatural beings I object to- it is the uses that such a belief is put to that I find objectionable, and the idea that 'our way' is 'the only way'.
I'm not the one being discourteous- a brief glance at Elok's insult ridden posts should clarify that, and you Mr. Kenobi, have been known to resort to the cheap personal invective yourself- or do I need to remind you about your presumption of my Australian nationality (and the remarks based on that), and the idea that I let the Sceptics' Bible do my thinking for me? |
First off, your protests against the abuses of religion in terms of violence in the name of God is anachronistic. Did you know that today, the vast majority of Christians no longer advocate violenct slaughter in the name of God?  
And as for your complaint about insult ridden posts -- you sometimes do that with your statements, such as "you can believe in anything, even Santa Clause . . ." as if to belittle our belief in something much more significant and meaningful -- God.
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19-02-2004 00:26
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