15-02-2004 09:50									#1
	Any thoughts on Pollution Model? Get a bigger avatar today!

Don't know about you guys, but I feel that the Pollution Model in Civ needs a HUGE shake up! At the moment, there is really little incentive to reduce your pollution, as your armies of workers will simply mop it up the moment it appears!
In order to improve things, I feel that a new model is in order. My preference is that each city in your nation would have FOUR pollution levels.
Level 1 is unpolluted, and this is the beginning state for each city.
Level 2 is 'Annoying' pollution. This pollution level has 3 effects: i) There is a % chance, each turn, of decreasing happiness for each of your 'Factions' within that city (most likely the labourer, farmer, Environmentalist and Administrati factions)-and hence general city happiness levels. If this should cause factional happiness to drop below 40% (or general happiness below 50%), then those most affected will DEMAND you introduce measures to lower the city's pollution levels-such as decomissioning polluting power plants, building mass transit, eco-transit or the like, reducing population or building forests etc.) If you don't, then that city could go into revolt-and even BREAK AWAY (small chance of this, though). ii) Each turn, there is a VERY small chance of people in your city dying from pollution related diseases.
iii) There is a very small chance of a random squre within your empire becoming 'Polluted'-this works in much the same way as in previous Civ games!

Level 3 is 'Harmful' Pollution. The chance of a happiness drop, per turn, increases markedly, and the % chance of population loss also increases. Polluted squares caused by the level of pollution take TWICE as long to clean up, and cost TWICE as much to clean, as well. Also, for every turn that your pollution levels remain at this level, there is a % chance of one of your city squares becoming less productive (though this can be repaired by workers with terraforming ability)! In addition, this level of city pollution will also contribute to your national pollution levels.

Level 4 is 'Lethal' pollution levels. Each turn, happiness for ALL factions in your city will drop, and population losses are ALMOST guaranteed!! Polluted squares from this level of pollution take four times as long to clean, and cost four times as much to clean!!! Indeed, you can't even BEGIN to clean this type of pollution until you've dropped your city's pollution levels BACK to harmful or below!! There is also a % chance of a city square becoming permanantly less productive. Lastly, this level of pollution contributes significantly to NATIONAL pollution levels, and to Global pollution levels.

There would be three levels of 'Pollution' Gauge- a local (city) level, as described above. A national level, which has the same general effects as described above, but can occur in any city, or square, within your borders-and even within 3-4 squares of your borders (which will seriously 'Piss Off' your neighbours. Latly, you have Global pollution levels-again with very similar effects to those above, but can occur in any city, or square, on the PLANET!! Obviously, this can mimic such global environmental issues as Global Warming, Nuclear Winter, and even pollution of our oceans and the like!

So, what would effect pollution levels? Use of certain Resources, such as coal, oil and uranium-to build both units and improvements; Population levels; building certain improvements, like freeways, coal plants, factories and mfg plants; building certain tile improvements, such as mines, roads and railways; disappearance of certain resources, like fish, whales and elephants can contribute a very small amount to national pollution levels. Use of weapons such as nuclear and chemical weapons can also contribute to all 3 levels of pollution! Lastly, deforestation can also contribute to pollution levels!
Putting money into the the environment budget, building of ecologically sustainable improvements, and decreased use of environmentally harmful resources can all reduce pollution, as can re-forestation, curbing of population growth, and passing of environmentally friendly 'legislation'!
Anyway, those are MY thoughts-does anyone have any other suggestions for pollution?

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	15-02-2004 20:41									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sounds good to me, all I know is that the current one sucks.

	15-02-2004 22:28									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think pollution should be removed. The only possible purpose of polution is to force a choice between industrializing and not industrializing. That is utterly ridiculous - it shouldn't be a choice, if you don't industrialize you should DIE, plain and simple. Thus, all it is is an annoyance.

	15-02-2004 22:29									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A pollution model should add strategic depth - it should present the player with several options, where it isn't obvious which one is the best.

The "traditional" one (the same in Civ 1, 2 & 3) just adds trouble. You *must* build factories to keep production up, and then you *must* build pollution-reducing improvements and workers to combat it. No choice.

The player's choice could be based on the principle "a little trouble now or large trouble later". A player could choose between investing in eco-friendly farming and factories in the early industrial era (at the cost of arms and tech race) or cleaning up the mess some decades later at an even greater cost.

	16-02-2004 02:56									#5
	Tired of ads?

Pollution should definately cause a hit on population growth and happiness.

In any model where you have workers, cleaning the pollution from the map is trivial. In a public works system, the cost of cleaning each piece of pollution could vary according to the amount of pollution already on the map.

One thought I've had about 'pollution' is that there should be a separate 'pollution' layer of terrain improvements. This could allow for standard pollution, radiation (much harder to clear), and, in scenarios, stuff like planet fungus, undead blight, and zerg creep.

	16-02-2004 04:00									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Optimizer
A pollution model should add strategic depth - it should present the player with several options, where it isn't obvious which one is the best.

The "traditional" one (the same in Civ 1, 2 & 3) just adds trouble. You *must* build factories to keep production up, and then you *must* build pollution-reducing improvements and workers to combat it. No choice.

The player's choice could be based on the principle "a little trouble now or large trouble later". A player could choose between investing in eco-friendly farming and factories in the early industrial era (at the cost of arms and tech race) or cleaning up the mess some decades later at an even greater cost. [/QUOTE

No country has EVER made this strategic decision. Every single country, when it could industrialize, has either a) industrialized or b) died.

	16-02-2004 04:40									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I would rather pollution cause the loss of a shield(s) and unhappiness than how it is in effect.

and I want some way of forcing the AI to clean up their land. Threaten war over the environment

	16-02-2004 05:14									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I DEFINITELY feel that pollution must remain a part of the game but, as was pointed out, with some strategic depth!! YES, most nations that didn't industrialise have 'died in', in one way or another but-just over a century after the Industrial Age began, we are now starting to Reap a bitter harvest! Not only are we having to clean up our own messes, courtesy of 100 years of unrestrained development, but now we're trying to tell newly indsutrialising nations to curb their own emmissions.
I guess my point is that a pollution model really should better reflect these facts!
Basically, when you first begin industrializing, it will probably cause a LOT of local pollution, but very little national or global pollution (unless you go WAAAY overboard!!)! However, in the late industrial, early modern era, technologies should become available that will help you to curb your pollution, whilst still retaining somewhere close to your existing productivity! These measures should come at a moderately high cost, though, both in terms of maintainance and the possible loss of influence of certain 'Vested Interests' (who might just try and kick up a stink !!) Also, there should be environment pacts-both bilateral and multilateral-that get agreements on reducing pollution to a certain national level over X turns!
Anyway, that's WHY I have suggested a model for pollution which really does make 'Polluters Pay', as it were!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	16-02-2004 06:21									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What about another slider in which at a certain point, say industrialization, you would have to pay taxes into to keep at a reasonable level. As you advanced and built more pollution causing structures and pop increased, you would have to pay a larger percentage, but likewise certain structures would decrease it.

	16-02-2004 20:55									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Industrialisation is inevitable and the main effects are very, very long term (gross pollution of an area and ultimately global warming.) Yet at the moment only those catastrophic events are modelled.

In the shorter term I'd prefer to see industries bring greater industrial strength (shields) at a cost to growth (food) as well as happiness. Pollution undoubtedly did its bit to keep the death rate high in cities. Initially it should be hard to grow large industrial centres. A direct penalty on food production would do that.

Cleaner and improved production, better farming methods and environmental discoveries will all impact on the production/agriculture balance to allow bigger more productive cities. At the moment all the brakes come off in one go as the city cap becomes unrestricted.