17-02-2004 22:19									#31
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Lucky is obviously not telling the entire story...

he HAS disobeyed admin rulings, and I just proved it in my last post at the UN

	17-02-2004 23:49									#32
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I am becomming tempted to bring up the issue of GCA's "luck" in order to make the point that Apolyton has suffered enough from exploits and potential cheating... that we are willing to let this game move forward if we just bury everything behind us, including the unit warp of this past turn.

We MUST demand that unit warping and such exploits become illegal in the future, however.

	17-02-2004 23:53									#33
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not yet Arne...

	17-02-2004 23:59									#34
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We have no proof beyond mere statistics that GCA reloaded, to bring it up would be folly and muddy the issue(s) at hand. All lucky would say to rebut the reload argument is "Mongoose played our saves and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary."

this is such a farce

	18-02-2004 00:12									#35
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So GWT demands that cheating be allowed or they'll quit the game?
They have no pride.

BTW: Can anyone pls short explain how this teleporting is done?

	18-02-2004 00:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart BTW: Can anyone pls short explain how this teleporting is done?

When you gift a city to another civ then the units in the city get automatically teleported to your capital. That is how GCA had all their units move to the other continent and now what CGN has done with us.

	18-02-2004 00:20									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill When you gift a city to another civ then the units in the city get automatically teleported to your capital. That is how GCA had all their units move to the other continent and now what CGN has done with us.

Hey that was quick, great sevice here. Thx

	18-02-2004 00:24									#38
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Yeah, let's stay away from the cheating issue, because we have no way of proving it, and arguing about it would only cause harm.

The WW argument is somewhat off-topic too, but it at least ties in with the current debate. Even so, let's try and avoid jacking the thread from its intended purpose.

Let's leave it at this: State that we will shortly be sinking GCA's galley in the "Old World" and that once we no longer have cities in the "New World" (either by them being razed by GWT, GCA, or abandoned oursleves), we DEMAND that GCA make peace with us.

GWT's current argument is total bullshit. "You did the same thing we did, but yours was worse, so you have to go back and not do it!" Do not give an inch on this. They used it, we used it. How much hurt each team has taken depends on one's perspective.

Stand firm on banning it henceforth, but no replay of this last turn.

-Arrian

-Arrian

	18-02-2004 01:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian CGN is within their rights to refuse to change anything about that last turn. GWT's position does not make much sense to me. A little, but not enough. They used a tactic/exploit. The same tactic/exploit was later used against them. Perhaps this second use was more damaging (in their eyes). Allow me to go find a violin. Frankly, these games need better rules at the outset (I think MZODG's rules are better, but that's because it started much later). In retrospect, I feel GS's use of unit teleportation, both in the Voxodus and with RP, was a mistake. I would not use it in the ptwdgII, and I hope the other teams agree (though there is no formal rule against it in that game, AFAIK). It appears GWT feels the same. But I don't think GS would've whined and cried if GoW/ND had used unit teleportation against us. We probably would have proposed a ban henceforth (like GWT has done) without trying to alter the results of what was done in the past (unlike GWT). No selective exploitation. The only way we could support replaying last turn would be to go back and prevent GCA's warp. And that's not going to happen. Related issue: if city gifting for the purpose of unit warping is an exploit (which I now agree it is), what about city gifting for the purpose of keeping a doomed civ alive? What about the gifting of a city on another continent that civ could not possibly reach, due to lack of ocean-going vessels? How is that not an exploit, even without any unit teleportation? -Arrian

I completely agree.

	18-02-2004 02:26									#40
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GWT and GCA aren't going to back down. If you consider teleportation a legit "move," as it has been ruled then attacking and moving would be a "double move."

That having been said, the way I see it, we should replay the last ~5 turns back before CGN pillaged their roads.

CGN was stupid to have done that in the first place. They should have just kept Boston and the roads leading back behind it. They could have conducted a real retreat and not lost all those Knights in order to buy time to hook up saltpeter and upgrade some Muskets. It would also give them some time to build another city at the second chokepoint southeast of Agincourt (northeast of Waterloo).

In other words, if we replay the last 5 turns it's MORE to our advantage than continuing as things are now. CGN has 1/2 their Knight force back. That's a huge difference.

	18-02-2004 02:29									#41
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I can agree with that.

	18-02-2004 02:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I am becomming tempted to bring up the issue of GCA's "luck" in order to make the point that Apolyton has suffered enough from exploits and potential cheating... that we are willing to let this game move forward if we just bury everything behind us, including the unit warp of this past turn. We MUST demand that unit warping and such exploits become illegal in the future, however.

Well, that cat's out of the bag over there now. It'll be interesting to see how Lucky responds (IF he responds) to that.

	18-02-2004 02:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Trip In other words, if we replay the last 5 turns it's MORE to our advantage than continuing as things are now. CGN has 1/2 their Knight force back. That's a huge difference.

Make sure miccofl knows this and if they are in agreement, I'd say go for it.

	18-02-2004 02:38									#44
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speaking of miccofl, have they posted anything in that thread yet? Or are they letting Poly do all the dirty work?

	18-02-2004 02:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel speaking of miccofl, have they posted anything in that thread yet? Or are they letting Poly do all the dirty work?

I first posted the thread last night and told miccofl about it, but he was, uh, a little intoxicated and we agreed that it would be best that he refrained from commenting at that time.

Right now he's at work.

	18-02-2004 02:46									#46
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Seems like GWT might be willing to consider backing up ~5 turns.

Fine by me, if necessary. I wonder, would different moves result in different random numbers and maybe we would sink GCA's galley this time? Or was that more than 5 turns ago?

-Arrian

	18-02-2004 02:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Seems like GWT might be willing to consider backing up ~5 turns. Fine by me, if necessary. I wonder, would different moves result in different random numbers and maybe we would sink GCA's galley this time? Or was that more than 5 turns ago? -Arrian

It was 4-5 turns ago...

	18-02-2004 02:54									#48
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Actually, looks like it was too many turns ago, nevermind.

	18-02-2004 04:14									#49
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I can not believe we are going to go back 4 or 5 turns and negate CGN's magic carpet ride.

We are telling GWT and GCA its OK for them to exploit but not us.

I realize a lot of people have put a lot of time into this game but it is getting to the point of why continue?

Im beginning to wonder why I got involved in the C3C IDG,

	18-02-2004 04:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Trip In other words, if we replay the last 5 turns it's MORE to our advantage than continuing as things are now. CGN has 1/2 their Knight force back. That's a huge difference.

Sheesh, Trip, are you only interested in what's most advantageous to APO?

The fact of the matter is, CGN cut their roads before it was confirmed that we would do the teleport trick with them (did they even know about it before a couple of turns ago?). Letting CGN undo their mistakes is advantageous to us, but is clearly unfair to GWT. If you go back more than one turn, GWT completely loses their element of surprise.

It would be very difficult and completely artificial to play the last 5 turns without the knowledge we now possess.


Dominae

	18-02-2004 04:33									#51
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con, we are currently discussing with CGN about backtracking so long since it could actually be EVEN BETTER for them militarily wise since they'll be able to put up a better defense of Agincourt

	18-02-2004 04:39									#52
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Can I point out, that we agreed to the warp, to try and ban some exploits.

Mainly..
1. All unit warping.
2. And using war weariness as a tactic.

Hell... we names one of the cities "Enjoy your War Weariness"


We seem to be addressing the unit warp thing.
But we still need to address war weariness. It would be a pity to go through this, and then allow it to continue.

	18-02-2004 04:46									#53
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Our stance is that we used the teleport exploit with CGN to prove a point?

	18-02-2004 05:06									#54
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Dominae...

GWT seems willing, no actually EAGER to go back 3-6 turns in order to allow CGN to change whatever they did to prepare for the unit warp. Obviously, GWT doesn't have a problem with it.

Hot_Enamel,

The War Weariness issue is the other that needs to be tackled, yes. We have several options on this:

1. We agree with GWT/GCA that Apolyton and CFC will not cause war weariness to GWT by making them take cities we receive if GWT nor GCA will cause Apolyton and CFC war weariness through a similar method. In effect, we agree to a ONE-TURN window of a requirement to make peace rather than a FIVE-turn window. This agreement could either never expire (the teams agree to vote to make it or something similar a game rule through the UN system) or would expire with the full cessation of CGN-GWT/GCA hostilities.

2. We use the present situation to force GCA to end their war with us on a one-time basis in return for us ending our war with GWT on a one-time basis. Since we now know that Apolyton would continue to enjoy the negative WW even if we went back to war (or at least that is my understanding), we would be in good shape even if GCA redeclared on us or put us into a position where we would need to redeclare on them. This would effectively blunt the entire war weariness issue for some time to come. For the future we extract a promise out of all parties by strictly abide by Mongoose's 5-turn rule.

Or some other means. Right now would be the optimal time to negotiate it though, I agree.

	18-02-2004 05:31									#55
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No one has yet to convince me that the teleport trick is in fact an EXPLOIT. In single player, any human can gift a city to any AI civ, and they will take it. No questions asked. So, the exploit appears to actually be on the human end, "Do I accept the city or not?" which should be corrected to "Now that I am forced to accept this city, what do I do with it?". Just because the AI doesn't use this feature is due to the "thought paterns" of the AI in how it chooses to conduct military exercises.

Sorry to thread jack, but I figured I might as well do it here among friends as opposed to a more public place.

--GK

	18-02-2004 05:44									#56
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I dislike the 5 turn ruling

In modern times, (Railroads & Tanks), it is nearly impossible to break into a well fortified defender. Yet it is very easy for that defender to "arrange" a 1 unit battle every 5 turns.

	18-02-2004 05:46									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Our stance is that we used the teleport exploit with CGN to prove a point?

I cant speak for everyone, but yes, I cast my single vote to allow it, to prove a point.

To bring attention to a ruling that is an exploit.

	18-02-2004 06:15									#58
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Originally, it wasn't. But then we had thought, This is a D*MN good oppertunity to see what GWT/GCA will say about this use of this exploit. They had then protested with Mongoose and there were threats of them quitting (according to what Trip had told/shown us). So, WHY NOT use this event and how it has come about to show just how interestingly nasty this exploit CAN be used AND to call for the further Banning of this exploit. Sometimes, oppertunity comes and really kicks you in the A$$ and you had better move while it's available!!!

E_T

	18-02-2004 06:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Our stance is that we used the teleport exploit with CGN to prove a point?

Not 100% for that reason. It was mostly agreed to by me so that we could assist CGN. I did not lookk at it as a way to 'pay back' GWT; although it sure made it a little sweeter and easier to justify since GWT had done it to us. Sometimes you fight fire with fire....instead of water, sand, limiting it's oxygen supply, ect..

	18-02-2004 20:31									#60
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Yes, part of the purpose of using this exploit was to use it ONCE so that it would never be used by anyone ever again.

That seems to have worked. All teams are now discussing the BANNING of unit warping, under all circumstances, for the rest of the game. I fear that that consensus would not have existed had we not used the exploit ourselves.