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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:33
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For those of you who have not been caught up on the latest GWT-CGN-Mongoose debate, it seems that there is a high probability that we reach an unmendable impasse in the game because of both team's decision not to give in.
Basically the positions are as follows:
GWT demands that CGN replay the turn due to the teleporting of CGN units in Boston.
CGN refuses to replay since GWT set the precedent as far as teleportation goes (GCA)
It is our belief that teleportation is an exploit and should not have been used ever. However, due to the fact that to this day we have suffered WW from GCA, it is highly hypocritical of GWT to also demand that CGN not do the very same exploit that they assisted GCA with.
Apolyton's current position is to outlaw teleportation permanently from now on. This has been brought up just a few minutes ago in the UN by our consuls:
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=5937
However, there is a big problem, which is that GWT is threatening to quit the game (again) unless CGN replays the turn. This is the impasse that we are getting into, an impasse because no team will budge on their position and it very well mean GWT retires from play, and this would pretty much signal the (sorry) end of the ISDG.
So the question which begs to be asked. Are we as a team willing to bend over and support GWT's demands so that this game will continue? Or, do we take an equally unflinching stance and accept to end this game if GWT decides to quit?
*****
In my personal opinion, I find it very childish of GWT to act this way considering they already allowed teleporting. I see no reason why we should bend over to their demands every time something like this goes on. Who knows what reason GWT will give next time to stall this game or threaten to quit again...
I am however saddened at the possibility of this game ending since we have devoted so much time and effort into it. We deserve to continue playing also, and we have such a talented team that I am confident that we would have a shot at victory.
One final request:
The debate in the UN forum might turn up very heated and I urge that any member of Apolyton who posts in that thread do it only in the most civil and courteous manner, respecting all other team's or player's opinions even if he does not share them. Flame fests are the last thing we need.
Thank you
-MZ
(btw, note that this is not a poll since we might still be able to convince GWT otherwise and they have not yet made their threat to quit public)
Last edited by Master Zen on 17-02-2004 at 10:35
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H Tower
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1 or 3, I'm leaning towards 3.
If CGN has to replay, then eliminate GCA. Otherwise take our ball and come home. We don't need the ****ers anyways
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:33
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This is true. "Teleporting" is not a move, as the city itself force relocates everything inside regardless of movement points. The teleporting itself actually occurs between turns, it's sort of an "out of game" action as it's not physicly possible and uses no actual movement points of any of the units displaced.
Regardless of if the units moved to that city, attacked while in that city, upgraded while in that city, or just sat there, being teleported doesn't use up any of their movement points nor should it, because of the nature of this very unusual decision by the Civ3 game designers.
Other's desire to call the teleport a "move" or to morally justify when teleporting can and cannot occur is just a bunch of cr*p. If it can occur, then allow it to occur universally. If it cannot occur, then disallow it universally. Any gray area on this issue is only going to cause further animosity and hard feelings, especially where people like Lucky are involved.
--Togas
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Bongo of GWT responded in the thread at UN.
quote:
It is indeed time to get some things sortet out and move on.
It won't be easy though....
First subject, the unit-warping.
In retrospect, GCA/GWT should never asked for permission to do the jump and Moongoose should never had said yes. So much for 20/20 hindsight vision.
We were not amused when we discovered Netas little jump out of Boston, and neither were fcf/poly/neta whe GCA performed their little stunt. Does that mean that GWT should accept a ban on further jumps from now on? I think not. We will be willing to discuss a ban when netatolia has made a final jump to cfc/polys continent to save their last units.
In sum, GWT will not object further to the jump out of Boston. However, we will not support a ban on further jump either, as it has now been made an integral part of our military strategy.
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In what way?? they can only warp back to Home palace. Sounds like a messy manuver to me. Also, interesting that they think that they will totally win. They might and then again....
quote:
Second subject, double action.
The turn neta did the jump, they also attacked 9 ansars. Effectively getting double action out of a 1MP unit. Which also happened to be the subject in the 'fortify all' discussion. This is clearly a cheat.
We demand that Neta replay the turn without attacking our ansars with 1MP units.
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wine, whimper, cry...... my cat wines better than that. And they might not win, with this loss, etc.
quote:
Third subject, GCAs survival.
This is only to clear up a misunderstanding. If the first jump had not taken place, it would most likeliy been the end of GCAs army, but not GCA itself. GWT were prepared to give them both cities and protection to ensure their further existence.
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And we are doing everything in our power to reverse this action.
[wicked witch] "I'll get you my GWT, and your little dog (lucky), too" [/witch]
quote:
Fourth subject, War Weariness.
I have been discussing this subject with members of apolytons team in a chat before. I remember not being very receptive of apolytons view at that time but have been moderating my views after that.
This really is a shortcoming in the game-mechanics as even long periods without hostile actions will not lower WW even a tiny bit. This is not a problem in single player but as we have proven over the last months, it is a problem in multiplayer.
The problem with 'enforced peace' is that peace open trade lanes and open embassies(and allows spying). It also removes WW as a method of economic warfare, even if it is war by proxy as in this case.
How do we solve it then? Ideally, the game would lower WW after long periods of 'peace'. I don't think this is accessible by the editor though...but if someone knows a way to reduce WW by tampering with the save file, we might consider it Even with a peacy treaty, WW takes very long to disappear(20 turns?) completely. If we could change the game mechanics, I would say that WW should go down at half the rate of what it does with a peace treaty in place.
How do we mimick that??? One way is to accept an enforced peace after..10 turns?, then have 10(?) turns of peace(with a ban on spying and trading past enemy waters), then declare a new war...rinse and repeat until WW is gone. This will allow a 'formal' war to continue while removing WW among those nations affected.
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He doesn't know how the thing works. If we do this, we get rid of most of the WW and then have a positive balance, when GCA redeclairs in 10 turns. It might be benifitial.
Also, we took an oath, no mucking with the save file, period. Are they condoning the possibility of someone else possibly doing that (GCA's fantastic luck comes to mind)?? I say absolutely not!!
E_T
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:33
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CGN is within their rights to refuse to change anything about that last turn.
GWT's position does not make much sense to me. A little, but not enough. They used a tactic/exploit. The same tactic/exploit was later used against them. Perhaps this second use was more damaging (in their eyes). Allow me to go find a violin.
Frankly, these games need better rules at the outset (I think MZODG's rules are better, but that's because it started much later). In retrospect, I feel GS's use of unit teleportation, both in the Voxodus and with RP, was a mistake. I would not use it in the ptwdgII, and I hope the other teams agree (though there is no formal rule against it in that game, AFAIK). It appears GWT feels the same. But I don't think GS would've whined and cried if GoW/ND had used unit teleportation against us. We probably would have proposed a ban henceforth (like GWT has done) without trying to alter the results of what was done in the past (unlike GWT).
No selective exploitation. The only way we could support replaying last turn would be to go back and prevent GCA's warp. And that's not going to happen.
Related issue: if city gifting for the purpose of unit warping is an exploit (which I now agree it is), what about city gifting for the purpose of keeping a doomed civ alive? What about the gifting of a city on another continent that civ could not possibly reach, due to lack of ocean-going vessels? How is that not an exploit, even without any unit teleportation?
-Arrian
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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southpark , a cartoon show
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17-02-2004 10:21
The game will go on!
opd watches Bongo playing the ptwdg2 save 
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