18-02-2004 03:42									#1
	Short-Rushing Plans Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Taking a breather from the whole UN debate and since we have the chance to think a bit of our building strategy in the near future, I would like to bring out the issue of short-rushing so that we all can discuss it.

First of all, I will post the chat log where E_T and us three consuls discussed the short-rush plans:

quote: [19:08] [E_T] While the consuls are here, and before my dinnertime, have you looked at the Shortrushes that I currently have planned? [19:09] [Trip[dinner]] E_T: I already told mongoose about GWT's WW [19:09] [Trip[dinner]] apparently you don't read the FAM correspondance thread either [19:09] * Trip[dinner] is now known as Trip [19:10] [Arnelos] E_T - no... lemme do that [19:10] [Trip] I saw the Galley in Hisp [19:10] * Trip changes topic to 'Apolyton ISDG: Nothing Like Seeing a Good German Squirm' [19:11] [WhiteBandit] we have the turn? [19:11] [E_T] I'm still relooking at HoD, but as of this moment, this looks like the best I can currently get it [19:11] [Arnelos] wow... that's a lot of money on shortrushing [19:11] [Arnelos] WB - no [19:11] [E_T] Hey, it could have been more [19:11] [Arnelos] E_T - do we really have to spend that much money for the shortrush so that Hisp's population gets down for the palacejump? [19:12] [E_T] and the thing that is the priority, is to get all of the core cities at size 5 or below, and this is the only route to that I can figure out [19:12] [Arnelos] ok [19:12] [Trip] can't we just add another pop to AP? [19:12] [Arnelos] if it's necessary for the palacejump, we do it [19:13] [Arnelos] but 64 gold is nothing to sneeze at [19:13] [Arnelos] Trip has a point [19:13] [E_T] well, all of the testing that I've currently done, shows that the jump goes to the size 6 cities, except when AP is very large [19:13] [Trip] how large? [19:14] [Trip] we can afford to burn some Workers [19:14] [Arnelos] Trip's on the right track... I'd rather burn some workers than burn 64 gold [19:14] [Trip] especially right now [19:14] [Trip] with CGN, saltpeter, and our possible future ambitions with GWT [19:14] [E_T] If I can save a worker from having to be added AND have a little better contral over the move, i.e. through pop control, then it think a little gold now is worth it... [19:15] [Trip] E_T: normally I'd agree with you, but right now gold is very very important [19:15] [Arnelos] I think we differ on what constitutes a "little" gold [19:15] [Trip] research, CGN loan, Knight/Musket upgrades, future boat and Cav upgrades [19:15] [Trip] there's a long list of things we need gold for right now [19:15] [E_T] look. we talked about shortrushing, in the forums [19:16] [E_T] Yes, and the palace move has priority, IMHO, when it comes to rushing things [19:16] [E_T] and besides, this isn't hundreds of gold [19:16] [Trip] we discussed it [19:16] [Trip] no one rubber-stamped it [19:16] [E_T] and IIRC, we have upgraded all of our horses to knights [19:17] [E_T] and wasn't it a certain consul who what wanting to use all of that gold to speed through the techs? [19:18] [Trip] only for the purpose of being able to chain Caravels to CGN [19:18] [Trip] between HoD and Hisp, it's over 100 [19:18] [Trip] what about future short rushes? [19:18] [Trip] we're talking a sizable part of our treasury already [19:18] [E_T] be thankful it's not more [19:19] [E_T] AND, I'm efforting to make it even cheaper [19:19] [E_T] BUT, the thing is, it WILL need to be spent [19:19] [Arnelos] E_T - we're talking optimization here [19:19] [Arnelos] sure, we could spend it now [19:19] [Arnelos] so? [19:20] [Trip] I was of the opinion the Palace Jump depended on the size of AP [19:20] [Arnelos] If there's a better way to do it, why not go that way instead? [19:20] [E_T] whereas, on other rushes, in the future, they aren't needs, like now [19:20] [Trip] that does not directly involve any gold [19:20] [Trip] or rather, the size of AP relative to the sizes of other cities [19:20] [Trip] which also does not directly involve gold [19:21] * WhiteBandit has quit IRC (Quit: ) [19:21] [Arnelos] E_T - how many workers do we have to join into AP to get the palacejump to work versus rushing things for money? [19:21] [E_T] The Palace move depends on several factors, surrounding pop is also a factor, so, if our current core had cities that have size 6, then we have to use more workers to overcome this [19:21] [MasterZen] back [19:21] [MasterZen] hmmm [19:22] [E_T] Target pop for AP is 8, WITH the current core at 5 or less [19:22] [TogasAFK] amusing sidenote: I'm watching Bravo's West Wing marathon right now ... it's a commercial. I drop in here to review the chats and find the EXACT SAME SORTS of conversations happening. How funny. [19:22] [E_T] will likely be 9 or 10 if current core is more [19:22] [MasterZen] have we actually used the palace jump formula in the strat forum to know exactly what size we need to get AP to? [19:23] * Sharpe is now known as Sharpe-gaming [19:23] [MasterZen] because it seems to me 100g is just gross overspending of what potentially is just a few workers [19:24] [Arnelos] E_T 9 or 10 over 8... not bad [19:24] [Arnelos] that's 2 workers [19:24] [E_T] We have done some simming, and I've played with some past sim saves to look further at the move, just to get an idea of what is a better mothod, to help "even the odds" [19:24] [MasterZen] well, assume for a moment that gold is a much more precious commodity ATM than building workers from scratch... [19:25] [E_T] thing is, there is a lot of things still to be done with those workers, and I would rather not have to add them if I can help it [19:25] [Trip] there is still a lot of things to do with that gold too [19:25] [MasterZen] but that's the problem. The same can be said about the gold [19:25] [MasterZen] xpost :P [19:26] [Trip] gold has the potential to save CGN and thusly US from a lot of headaches [19:26] [Trip] 100 gold is almost 2 Muskets [19:26] [E_T] remember, in about 12 turns, not only will the palace be moving, but all of the settlers for the rest of the sites will have been built and either on their way or founding thir repective cities [19:26] [E_T] and they also need to have worker actions done for them [19:26] [E_T] i.e. saving the workers is good [19:26] [MasterZen] look [19:27] [MasterZen] I'll say this in an economist's terms: [19:27] [MasterZen] everything we build or not build carries a cost. It's an opportunity cost [19:27] [E_T] agreed [19:27] [MasterZen] basically it means what you would have rather done with that gold [19:27] [MasterZen] now, we have an opportunity cost for workers [19:28] [MasterZen] which is using them for whatever you want to use them for, which is perfectly fine [19:28] [MasterZen] however, the potential opportunity cost of those 100g being used by CGN just tremendously overshadows our own use for the workers [19:28] [E_T] and the opertunity cost for them is higher right now, compaired to the gold.... [19:28] [MasterZen] 2 muskets for CGN are worth much more than 2 workers for us right now [19:28] [MasterZen] opportunity cost-wise [19:29] [E_T] especially, with respect to the goal that is involed, which is the palace move [19:29] [MasterZen] because after all, you weren't planning on those workers in the first place :P [19:29] [E_T] No, that isn't true [19:29] [Arnelos] E_T - I think what we need is for you to lay out for us how you see those workers being worth 100 gold over the period they would be working compared to when new workers can be pumped out of another city to replace them? [19:29] [Arnelos] 100 gold is a lot... [19:30] [Arnelos] (though that is admittedly a rough estimate) [19:30] [E_T] I know that things need to be done, I stare at the save and figure what and where and how, then try to accomplish it [19:30] [MasterZen] and you do an excellent job at that, but I think we have different ideas of what is our current priority [19:30] [MasterZen] and making CGN not lose is, IMO, number one right now [19:31] [E_T] well, also consider this, the results of this one Opertunity cost, of the short rush in HoD, is 1) sooner Library & 2) a worker after it, right before the palace move [19:32] [Arnelos] I'm not even fully convinced that 2-3 workers are worth 100 gold period, nevermind the inflated value of the gold... I mean... we could calculate the actual shield, food, and commerce value lost because those workers were not improving tiles over X period and it would take a while to match the gold lost for shortrushing [19:33] [Arnelos] especially considering that the workers will be replaced in relatively short order [19:33] [Arnelos] though not necessarily in the same location [19:33] [Arnelos] and the population is not lost... it will join AP [19:33] * E_T[dinnertime] has joined #ApolytonISDG [19:33] [Arnelos] what do you last have? [19:33] [E_T[dinnertime]] me chaning my nick [19:34] [Arnelos] err... we missed that happening [19:34] [E_T[dinnertime]] but it didn't go thought [19:34] * E_T has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [19:34] [MasterZen] the HoD rush is only 24. You're asking for a total shortrush of 88g this turn plus an additional 24g for a grand total of 112 [19:34] * E_T[dinnertime] is going to dinner... [19:34] [Arnelos] E_T - what was the last line you got [19:34] [Arnelos] ? [19:34] * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [19:35] * Trip has joined #apolytonisdg [19:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Trip [19:37] [Arnelos] Trip - did you get everything? [19:37] [Trip] uhhh [19:37] [Trip] mostly

	18-02-2004 03:42									#2
	Support Apolyton

The issue has two sides:

At the moment, all three consuls agree that we would rather spend our money in a massive loan to CGN instead of short-rushing. Gold is our most precious commodity due to the effect it can have on the outcome of the CGN-GWT war. We have suggested that instead of using gold to gear us up for the Palace jump, we rather build some extra workers and use them in AP to build it to size. In our opinion, workers can be spared more than gold.

However, this is not to say we are opposed to short-rushing per se. We would very much like to have an efficient short-rush plan with a considerable budget for accomplishing it, but only after the loan to CGN goes through. After the loan we can accumulate a bit more cash and then give E_T much more leverage on when and what to short-rush.

we are now open to discussion

-MZ

	18-02-2004 05:01									#3
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My understanding of the issue is that short rushing involves us buying only a portion of the sheilds to build a project when the project (if built normally) would waste sheilds.

It also allows us to build projects sooner in some cases.

In essence, we save sheilds and save a few turns (in some cases), but for the cost of sheilds rushed x 2 in gold.

I suppose if we had an excess amount of gold, or if we had a "budget" for rushing constrution projects, this would be a great idea to help us get modernized sooner and to help our developing nation to catch up with our overseas competators.

However, we do seem to have two greater uses for the gold:

1) Our deficit research project (which it seems we've casually ignored? Are we undertaking this project with the money that CFC is sending us or not??)

2) Financial Aid to CGN for their upgrades to Muskets. As CGN is researching at the highest possible rate to get Gunpowder sooner, they are going to need a large influx of cash to make their upgrades and the Bank of Apolyton needs to be open.

Getting a courthouse or marketplace up a turn sooner will give us a few extra coins, but is it really cost effective when our money has far greater uses right now? I'm not really sold that short rushing should be a priority of ours right now, especially given the important uses of our treasury.

--Togas

	18-02-2004 05:20									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Togas In essence, we save sheilds and save a few turns (in some cases), but for the cost of sheilds rushed x 2 in gold.

Every rushed shield costs 4 gold.

	18-02-2004 06:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Every rushed shield costs 4 gold.

This is true. I was obviously thinking about upgrades when I picked that number.

4x the gold for every shield....

--Togas

	18-02-2004 06:52									#6
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Yep, not worth it to short rush things unless you really save a bunch of shields or need it in an emergency. I think CGN could better use the gold to make sure it's a stalemate over there.

	18-02-2004 12:28									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

First off, I thank the consuls for starting this thread, as it's been a busy last few days, with all else that has been going on.

As for the current short rush needs, there is a main reason for them. The Palace move is coming several turns sooner than I had originally anticipated!! And because of this fact, I'm facing a task of get the last things that are needed either before the move (or right at the same time as the move) completed. Specifically:

#1) pop reduction in the core, to size 5 or less. This will help facilitate the move, making it more predictable for the move with AP at size X (or X+1). This X value is still to be fully determined. The workers that will need to be added will be available, that is a current fact in my planning.

#2) having courthouses built in the following Cities:
BigFurryCity
Hispanica
Incensity
Bananatopia

#3) an arbitrary quantity of settlers for the remainder of the new city sites built or almost completed. Also, part of the pop reduction plan (see #1)
Settlers still needed: 13
Turns of anticipated settler builds and cities that they are built in. Cities with ?? (except for Hisp, see city detail below) are still to have exact time determined, but they will be finished before the target turn.

code:

turn 161 (next turn to be played) - BB
turn 162 - Poly - Lux
turn 163
turn 164
turn 165
turn 166 - Poly - Ming
turn 167 - BB - ??Dominus??
turn 168 - Chiquita
turn 169 - EN
turn 170 - ??Hisp?? - ??Lux??
 All core 5 or less this turn (and not growing to 6 the next turn), add workers to AP 
turn 171 - Poly -  Palace move!! 
turn 172 - Equil abandoned

Last edited by E_T on 18-02-2004 at 15:34

	18-02-2004 19:29									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Shortrushing is all about shaving turns off builds without spending outrageous amounts of money. A bit here, a bit there... and it adds up (the benifits, I mean. The costs we know about - they are up-front. The difficult part is quantifying the payoff down the road). To me, turn advantage is everything. The faster we can get the essentials built, the better (courthouses, markets, libraries). I think this may be especially worthwhile in our new southern core. We want to get that up to speed quickly, so that when we trigger our GA, it's loaded with improvements, and we get as much out of that GA as possible.

As I tried to illustrate in the other thread about rushing that E_T started, shortrushing is typically pretty cheap.

I understand the desire to help CGN hold off GWT, believe me. Given that, I'd say we should restrict our shortrushing to particularly small ones... situations where a shortrush of 16g or less (4 shields) can reduce a turn off a build. In fact, that's a pretty common cost for a shortrush.

Hispanica (just taking one city from E_T's post above) is the shortrush posterchild: 9spt. However, that's actually very efficient for a courthouse - 9spt*9turns = 81s, where a CH is 80s. The issue for Hispanica, as I understand it, is to get that CH built in time for the palace jump. So it's not exactly a "normal" shortrush situation.

E_T:

Something I've done a little bit of in another demogame that shall remain nameless: selective disbanding of obselete units to act like shortrushing. I don't know if any of our units fall under the heading of "obselete and expendable" but if they do, we should consider their use for this purpose. A regular warrior can get you 2 shields (and save you 1gpt in upkeep).

-Arrian

	18-02-2004 21:15									#9
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Yes, Hispancia is a special case, but I'm exploring other options. I just hope that,. with this delay, that I'm able to look at several differnt things, so that I don;t have to short rush that as much as I can.

E_T

	18-02-2004 21:47									#10
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The delay...yeah. What about the possibility of the game backing up ~3 turns? What does that do?

-Arrian

	19-02-2004 03:22									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Or 5 turns (as CGN prefers), for that matter.

As MZ said in his first post, all three consuls disagree with short rushing anything for now. So please explore all options, in case an official decision says that we won't be short-rushing anything... I say that for your own benefit, E_T, because I don't want you putting all of your eggs into one basket.

	19-02-2004 17:25									#12
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I will attempt to explore those options, AFTER I have finished up for what is here and now.

As for the possiblity of backing up a few turns, there will be a few changes, but mostly, every thing will stay the way it already has been.

Also, I'm going on record as being entirely against going back in time.

E_T

	23-02-2004 13:37									#13
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Well, If we were able to have gone back in time, this wouldn't have been nessisary :sigh:

Bumping this for further discussion.

E_T

	23-02-2004 13:57									#14
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from the chat:

quote: [20:28] [E_T_still_sleepy] And I was going to have things set up, so that we wouldn't have to short rush that stuff and all [20:30] [MasterZen] we're not going to short rush, period :P (at least not yet) [20:41] * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away [20:43] [E_T_still_sleepy] Oh well, then we'll have to spend more workers [20:43] [E_T_still_sleepy] AND I can't gaurantee the Palace jump [20:44] [MasterZen] why not?

still haven't gotten an answer...

	23-02-2004 18:43									#15
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Im abstaining from this issue due to a conflict of interest.

This Loan needs to be discussed long and hard.

It will be a very tough decision.

	23-02-2004 22:02									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If we're going to make the loan because we think it would help, we can afford to expend the workers on the palace jump. That's MORE than worth the trouble. It's not like the population is disapearing... it'll be part of AP and the city can always just build workers to send them back out again if need be.

If we do NOT send the loan, however, short rushing is more feasible. We've already discussed slowing down the tech rate (as E_T counseled), so we should have enough money to help with short rushing under that case.

What E_T needs to recognize is that if we DO send a loan to CGN, we will simply not have the available funds for short rushing projects that he wants. We will simply have to use workers joined to AP to finish the palace jump.

Keeping CGN from being overrun by GWT, if this is possible, is simply too important. A turn delay on the palace jump would even be worth it if we could save CGN from defeat.

This is about priorities.

Furthermore, we've already polled this issue, as I recall, and the team was in favor of the loans if it could help.

	23-02-2004 22:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Furthermore, we've already polled this issue, as I recall, and the team was in favor of the loans if it could help.

Yes, and it was actually unanimous.

Meaning if we can send money to CGN, that's what we're going to do with it.

	23-02-2004 23:00									#18
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Why is short-rushing necessary for the Palace-jump?

	23-02-2004 23:19									#19
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E_T wants to have all cities near our current core to be at size 5 or below, whereas Apolyton Prime will be at size 8. This will make the jump easier to control (preventing any "accidents"). We are currently working on some big builds (Library and Harbor) in HoD and Hisp, and E_T wants to short-rush them, getting them done in order to get a Worker or Settler out of these cities to get their pop down in the next 10 turns.

However, the consuls have decided that this would be a poor use of our funds at the moment, and prefer adding more pop (size 9 or 10) to Apolyton Prime instead of having to short-rush anything at home right now.

	23-02-2004 23:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip However, the consuls have decided that this would be a poor use of our funds at the moment...

I thought we were still discussing it...

	23-02-2004 23:36									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I thought we were still discussing it...

E_T wants to do it next turn (should arrive tomorrow if GWT plays today). Thread open for a week, conclusion reached.

Though if anyone has a good argument, we always keep an open mind (and ear). We have to have a policy in place should the turn arrive and a decision needs to be made.

	24-02-2004 02:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I thought we were still discussing it...

It seems the Consuls want to decide everything regardless of what discussions take place or not. They don't even like to see polls they did not start.

	24-02-2004 03:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, and it was actually unanimous. Meaning if we can send money to CGN, that's what we're going to do with it.

It was not a blank cheque however.

Loans to CGN was agreed to in principle, but deatils of the loan..(how much, what it was to be used for, how it was to be repaid)..was to be presented to the senate at a later time.

	24-02-2004 06:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel It was not a blank cheque however. Loans to CGN was agreed to in principle, but deatils of the loan..(how much, what it was to be used for, how it was to be repaid)..was to be presented to the senate at a later time.

Correct.

If we hope to make a difference, it will have to be a rather large amount.

	26-02-2004 17:53									#25
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O.k., after further evaluation of several things, this is what I've been able to come up with:

HoD: With a WF change, before it gets to size 6, I'll be able to keep it at size 5 for the palace move. NO SHORTRUSHING REQUIRED

Hisp: With being able to get the settler from somewhere else, I only need to get a worker from Hisp to get it's pop back to size 5 for the palace move. This also gives me a turn more of regular build time and so, the short rush requirement for the Court build is greatly reduced. Only will need to shortrush this one turn for 24 gold, NO MORE than that .

So, my total Shortrush needs before the Palace move is just 24 gold on this next turn only.

MoI E_T

	27-02-2004 08:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by E_T O.k., after further evaluation of several things, this is what I've been able to come up with: HoD: With a WF change, before it gets to size 6, I'll be able to keep it at size 5 for the palace move. NO SHORTRUSHING REQUIRED Hisp: With being able to get the settler from somewhere else, I only need to get a worker from Hisp to get it's pop back to size 5 for the palace move. This also gives me a turn more of regular build time and so, the short rush requirement for the Court build is greatly reduced. Only will need to shortrush this one turn for 24 gold, NO MORE than that . So, my total Shortrush needs before the Palace move is just 24 gold on this next turn only. MoI E_T

E_T, I know we say it a lot but it deserves to be said again. You rock.