18-02-2004 06:04									#1
	On originality Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just as a matter of personal opinion, how much do handmade graphics matter to you folks when judging the quality of a scenario? The reason I ask is that I'm not too good at graphics editing; given a sufficient length of time, I can make passable unit or other graphics, but they hardly compare to the stuff BeBro, Curtsibling et al are churning out, and it seems silly to go to the trouble of making graphics when existing ones will do the job better than any attempt of my own. Second, are there certain graphics sets that you are so sick of seeing over and over again that it makes you physically ill to see them in a scenario? I know about the importance of style cohesion, I mean are there some cool-looking graphics that are just used too much by too many people?

If I only had to worry about the text stuff, I'd have no problem finishing the scenarios I start...

EDIT: spelling.

	18-02-2004 06:17									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like new stuff myself. Using the unit sets out there is great, especially if you're going to do a scenario that already has a specific unit set made for that time period, but originality counts.

If I'm going to keep wanting to play a scenario based on the usual Civ2 dynamics there has to be a little somthing for me to want to come back to. Plus, some unit sets are over done.

Now I'm not saying unit styles are bad, in fact I like it when a scenario uses the same style, but a ship unit can only be passed off as a transport, ocean liner, battleship, cruiser, early battleship, and modified troop carrier so many times.

So what if your art talents suck? Just give it a try and be creative. Add that to a decent scenario and you've got a good game. Art only goes so far.

EDIT: yay, I made prince

	18-02-2004 13:25									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Conrats, harry!

And I agree, creativity will show in the scenario.
A unit gif filled with Fairline/Tuttle/Panse/Pablo graphics is great, but a well-made scn will transcend looks.

The fine balance of survival against the odds is my favourite civ2 drama.
And it matters now if the aesthetics are in hi-res or glorious nemovision.

I can even put up with vanilla civ2 graphics, as there is a certain
nostalgia in playing the WW2 scen that comes with the game...

Elok, please forge ahead with whatever scenario idea you have for the community!

	18-02-2004 22:57									#4
	Remove this text

I'd second that Curt - a scenario's strength lies in it's tech tree, unit stats and events. Graphics are always secondary to these for me and I guess there enough units around to suit most historical periods.

Love the new avatar BTW old bean!

	18-02-2004 23:41									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Er, who's the old bean who got a new avatar? Well, presumptively 'taint me, as I can't even change my avatar yet, so I suppose it's not my business.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Curt. I'll try to live up to it. While we're on the subject, how sensitive are most people about you using their graphics, with credit of course? I know there's a lot of cool stuff in some scenarios that don't set any conditions on use, and in some cases don't even have a readme. In those circumstances, should I assume the answer is "no," or is it acceptable to copy with copious crediting? Oh, how this forum needs a Miss Manners...

	18-02-2004 23:55									#6
	Got spare money?

I have tried to make so many scenerios, and I rarely ever finish them-too much work.

I like having good graphics, given that I am singularly inept at making them- and I am glad such great new graphics are coming out.

IN terms of originality, my one great original scenerio idea that I actually complete (as opposed to my never finished WW3, WW1 and fantasy scenerios: I get the graphics, make the map, place cities, and then bog own on tech tree and other editing) was a scenerio of an alien invasion of a solar system devided into a series of independent human states (like the outer league [moons of saturn and beyond], The Jupiter moons and the asteroid belt, a Mars republic, and Earth). My porblems playwise were twofold:

1. Earth was overpowered- obviously the other states could noth match the wealth fo earth, and thus earth jumped really quickly in the tech tree, AND with far more population it could outproduce the other players. Also, since Earth was on one end, the invading alien fleet on the other the mid players, speically the small outter colonies got squeezed hard.

2. The aliens were singularly inacitve: they begin with a huge technologically superior fleet, and after taking the most outer colonies they simply just stopped and did not keep coming forward..leaving the Earth to build up dramatically and then sweep the board.

	19-02-2004 03:56									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Elok Er, who's the old bean who got a new avatar? Well, presumptively 'taint me, as I can't even change my avatar yet, so I suppose it's not my business.

That'll be Curt with the new avatar

quote: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Curt. I'll try to live up to it. While we're on the subject, how sensitive are most people about you using their graphics, with credit of course? I know there's a lot of cool stuff in some scenarios that don't set any conditions on use, and in some cases don't even have a readme. In those circumstances, should I assume the answer is "no," or is it acceptable to copy with copious crediting? Oh, how this forum needs a Miss Manners...

The general rule of thumb is that any unit gfx that are posted here can be used so long as the designer's initials are retained and he/she is credited; an exception to this are gfx that are posted as a taster for a forthcoming scenario.

	19-02-2004 06:28									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, I was thinking of improvement icons. But they're unsigned, so I'll play it safe.

	19-02-2004 08:08									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'd suggest placing signatures in terrain files, too. Improvement signing is tough. IMHO, you can credit these artists in the Readme.

quote: a scenario's strength lies in it's tech tree, unit stats and events. Graphics are always secondary to these for me

In fact some players are known to redraw units for scenarios that they really like. Seriously though, there are many excellent artists around here. If you can show them you've made a serious effort at the parts Fairline outlined, I'll bet you can get them to make a special unit or two. 'Course they might flog you if you drag out the development forever. Theoretically speaking, of course.

Speaking of new avatars, anyone noticed the saddened cycling fan?

	19-02-2004 08:35									#10
	Got spare money?

Yeah, that's why I'm not going to announce anything until I'm all but certain I'll have it finished sometime soon. I don't want it to fizzle after bugging somebody for custom graphics, y'know?

Oh, and GePap, if you ever make v2.0, "terraforming" becoming available to the other planets or a sudden, unexpected ecological disaster on earth might even the odds.

Of course, I don't even know how you simulated planets. If it were like Kobayashi's STBAQ, Earth would be a very boring power to play as. Imagine two hundred turns of pressing enter, clicking on two cities representing "Earth" and "Moon Colony," changing production orders, pressing enter again...

	19-02-2004 10:18									#11
	Got spare money?

The planets were bigger, Earh had about 5 cities on it, and the moon was held by an enemy human faction-the smallestmoons were 3X3 squares.

Also, Earth began with a fleet on the far edge of space, in the way of the alien fleet....usually it got wiped out.

I think the simplest way out would be to make the earth weak in industry (perhaps simulating an used up planet), so, rich and lots of people, but militarily on a more even playing field..also limit the tech tree.

	19-02-2004 14:35									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Boco Speaking of new avatars, anyone noticed the saddened cycling fan?

... I mean.

I do find good graphics very important, and exceedingly bad graphics can turn me away from a scenario... But I think that mostly dates back to the pre-FW days... The "graphics sets I'm sick of..." are probably only units adapted from the original civ graphics. With Nemo-style cities probably a good second (oh, and that doesn't mean cities with perspective, but city styles comprised of a random selection of gray square boxes).

	19-02-2004 18:37									#13
	Remove this text

I on the other hand mostly am good at creating graphics

	19-02-2004 22:52									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Boco ....In fact some players are known to redraw units for scenarios that they really like. Seriously though, there are many excellent artists around here. If you can show them you've made a serious effort at the parts Fairline outlined, I'll bet you can get them to make a special unit or two.

Exactly right. For me, the whole point of the SLeague is to provide a collective of people with different skills to assist scenario creators, be it historical info, graphics, coding or expert scenario creation knowledge.

quote: 'Course they might flog you if you drag out the development forever. Theoretically speaking, of course.

(I couldn't find an emoticon to theoretically flog you with, so this will have to do )

quote: Speaking of new avatars, anyone noticed the saddened cycling fan?

Ah, is that what Mercator's avatar is? I thought it was some kind of circus freak with no neck.

	20-02-2004 13:59									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Elok Actually, I was thinking of improvement icons. But they're unsigned, so I'll play it safe.

Elok, old chap!
You are most welcome to use any of my icons that you can find!

	20-02-2004 22:13									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We could use more City Display screens to choose from. That seems a much neglected part of graphic modding.

	21-02-2004 00:13									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

The problem with city.gif is that it only works in the root directory.

	01-03-2004 19:45									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

as an occasional scenario player, could i suggest that i prefer NO MORE innovation than is necessary?

I want the scenario to represent the historical (or fictional) period - and the designers approach to dealing with it. I'd rather NOT have to learn all new terrain, units etc. To the extent you can reuse an old graphic that im likely to have seen before, thats one less thing i have to learn.

For example im currently playing "Menelik". I have to learn the broad strategic situation, the events and the tech tree, as well as the units (the only late 19th c scen ive played before was "the Great Game" and that had different units, for good reason) I am quite pleased that Blackclove chose to leave the original terrains and terrain graphics - thats one less thing for me to learn, and has made the scenario much less agonizing for me.