19-02-2004 01:26									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, you are sheep, and you're used to herding. You just mistaken wolves for sheepdogs.

So Republicans are sheep under Bush. Dems were sheep under Clinton. YADDA YADDA YADDA

This thread is going nowhere fast.

	19-02-2004 01:26									#32
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It's a Sava thread. That's where and how they usually go.

-Arrian

	19-02-2004 01:27									#33
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So Republicans are sheep under Bush. Dems were sheep under Clinton. YADDA YADDA YADDA

We're all sheep, baby. I'm just one of those most dangerous of creatures, a clever sheep.

	19-02-2004 01:30									#34
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So Republicans are sheep under Bush. Dems were sheep under Clinton. YADDA YADDA YADDA This thread is going nowhere fast.

There is more truth to that than you think, 40% will vote for Bush, 40% will vote for Kerry no matter what, except for me of coarse, because I am open minded. What the two parties are going to fight over are the undecided 20% that will decide the next president.

	19-02-2004 01:30									#35
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So diplomat and Defiant, arguable two of the most biased right-wingers on the board, won't believe something critical of their presidential hero because it might be the result of bias.

The irony is funny, but I can't decide if it's the "haha" kind or the " " kind.

And don't expect diplomat to believe anything a scientist says, anyway, Sava. He believes they conspired to foist evilution on us.

	19-02-2004 01:30									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Big Crunch, Review the article, it only says Bush is bad, no specific claims yet, but Sava right away is branding Bush, wouldn't want to know why?

These are specific claims, they just aren't fleshed out:

quote: repeatedly censoring and suppressing reports by its own scientists, stacking advisory committees with unqualified political appointees, disbanding government panels that provide unwanted advice, and refusing to seek any independent scientific expertise in some cases

I doubt an article would go into more detail at a first print.

	19-02-2004 01:34									#37
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quote: And don't expect diplomat to believe anything a scientist says, anyway, Sava. He believes they conspired to foist evilution on us.

now I am beginning to understand...

	19-02-2004 01:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So diplomat and Defiant, arguable two of the most biased right-wingers on the board, won't believe something critical of their presidential hero because it might be the result of bias. The irony is funny, but I can't decide if it's the "haha" kind or the " " kind. And don't expect diplomat to believe anything a scientist says, anyway, Sava. He believes they conspired to foist evilution on us.

Intellectual response from Boris again, look I want to see the full report before I go on Kerry's bandwagon, gggeeeee, and you wouldn't be considered one of the biggest liberals out here, would ya?

	19-02-2004 01:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And don't expect diplomat to believe anything a scientist says, anyway, Sava. He believes they conspired to foist evilution on us.

I can't believe you're bringing up the whole creationist thing! That was done to death months ago!

I never ever said that scientists conspire to foist evolution on us. If you are going to quote me, then do it right!

besides, I am a scientist myself. I have the utmost respect for science.

All I have said is that I want to see some specifics. I am not going to bash Bush just because Sava tells me as I am suppose to.

	19-02-2004 01:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch These are specific claims, they just aren't fleshed out: quote: repeatedly censoring and suppressing reports by its own scientists, stacking advisory committees with unqualified political appointees, disbanding government panels that provide unwanted advice, and refusing to seek any independent scientific expertise in some cases I doubt an article would go into more detail at a first print.

Why not? Your are critizing the President of the USA, why not bring it all, change my mind if you can. I think it is kind of irresponsible of these "superior intellects" not to bring the whole show.

	19-02-2004 01:36									#41
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Sava, the article itself provides no details and no examples.

However, I think he scientist might be upset about the stem cell issue.

Also, the global warming issue seems to be highly controversial in scientific circles even today. It is its advocates that seem politically motivated.

	19-02-2004 01:36									#42
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What did you expect from an administration that leans on votes from people who think it's OK to ban Theory of Evolution from being teached in school?

EDIT: Sorry for repeating other people's arguments. However, the other mentions of evolution vs creation was written while I wrote this.

Last edited by Chemical Ollie on 19-02-2004 at 01:42

	19-02-2004 01:36									#43
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quote: I am not going to bash Bush just because Sava tells me as I am suppose to.

you don't need to bash him... you just need to acknowledge the truth. You shouldn't confuse bush-bashing with the bashing of your own personal conservative ideals. John McCain honestly represents conservative ideals and I love him.

	19-02-2004 01:37									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Intellectual response from Boris again, look I want to see the full report before I go on Kerry's bandwagon, gggeeeee, and you wouldn't be considered one of the biggest liberals out here, would ya?

Waiting to see the full report is a big cry from insinuating that a panel of nobel laureates would lie to attack the President. The former is reasonable, the latter is smear.

And I doubt I'd be considered one of the biggest liberals by anyone's measure, except of course extreme right-wingers. Hmmm, who here would fit that description?

	19-02-2004 01:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you don't need to bash him... you just need to acknowledge the truth. You shouldn't confuse bush-bashing with the bashing of your own personal conservative ideals. John McCain honestly represents conservative ideals and I love him.

What truth? You haven't showed me one example or proof that the Bush admin lied or distorted scientific facts.

Show me some specifics and I will gladly tell you if Bush distorted science.

If Bush did distort science, then I will gladly acknowledge the truth.

	19-02-2004 01:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Why not? Your are critizing the President of the USA, why not bring it all, change my mind if you can. I think it is kind of irresponsible of these "superior intellects" not to bring the whole show.

Again, I ask, where have I criticized him? All I have said is that I doubt the scientist would lie or exaggerate.

I am trying to get a copy of the paper from their website, but it keeps timing out. Perhaps you will have better luck.

	19-02-2004 01:44									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Waiting to see the full report is a big cry from insinuating that a panel of nobel laureates would lie to attack the President. The former is reasonable, the latter is smear. And I doubt I'd be considered one of the biggest liberals by anyone's measure, except of course extreme right-wingers. Hmmm, who here would fit that description?

Boris,
I dont' know if they would lie or not, I don't know them and I would want to see the full report before I make that judgment, and have other scientists look at it since most of it would probably over all of our heads except for Mtg.

Boris, if you consider me far right, you are then about as left as the come, really that shouldn't bother you.

	19-02-2004 01:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Again, I ask, where have I criticized him? All I have said is that I doubt the scientist would lie or exaggerate. I am trying to get a copy of the paper from their website, but it keeps timing out. Perhaps you will have better luck.

Big Crunch,
I am not talking about you critizing the President, I am referring to the scientists.

	19-02-2004 01:48									#49
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I want to see the actual facts that are disputed before I decide, but until then I'm leaning towards the scientists.

Sadly, I think Kerry would be even worse (though not necessarily in the same ways), so it won't change my opinion wrt the election

	19-02-2004 01:48									#50
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quote: Show me some specifics and I will gladly tell you if Bush distorted science.

I said in the first post "more to follow".

I'm looking for the actual report... or any other mention of this development. The corporate media probably won't report this, so it may be a while.

	19-02-2004 01:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I can't believe you're bringing up the whole creationist thing! That was done to death months ago!

In that thread, you repeated some of the most absurd creationist claims that would make any actual scientist laugh his buttocks off. So excuse me if I take your scientific credentials with a huge grain of salt, as well as your complaints that these scientists are just showing their bias. I think it's hysterical you're complaining about bias, when that is exactly what is motivating your argument here.

	19-02-2004 01:49									#52
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quote: Sadly, I think Kerry would be even worse (though not necessarily in the same ways), so it won't change my opinion wrt the election

you can't vote so your opinion doesn't matter

	19-02-2004 01:51									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you can't vote so your opinion doesn't matter

Now that is just flat out mean.

	19-02-2004 01:52									#54
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here's a site about an earlier situation in which Bush misused scientific data...

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/politicsandscience/

	19-02-2004 01:54									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Big Crunch, I am not talking about you critizing the President, I am referring to the scientists.

Oops, your style made it look like you were.

You complain they haven't brought on the accusations, but they have. It just isn't reported in detail in the NYT article. Do you blame the scientists for this?

	19-02-2004 01:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you can't vote so your opinion doesn't matter

Why can't skywalker vote?

	19-02-2004 01:55									#57
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here's the report from Aug 8th, 2003... the original story I posted is a follow up to this

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/pol...science_rep.pdf

	19-02-2004 01:55									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sava here's a site about an earlier situation in which Bush misused scientific data... http://www.house.gov/reform/min/politicsandscience/

Are you referring the Condom Effectiveness conspiracy.
Just kidding, I am reading it, however some of the stuff maybe over my head, may have to call Mtg in.

	19-02-2004 01:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why can't skywalker vote?

16 year olds can't vote, AFAIK

	19-02-2004 01:59									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Oops, your style made it look like you were. You complain they haven't brought on the accusations, but they have. It just isn't reported in detail in the NYT article. Do you blame the scientists for this?

Yes, I do. It is kind of like the layman saying I thing Bush invasion of Iraq s*cks but not explaining why. Of coarse all individuals have their god given right to say what they want, but this site is notorious for having you backup what you say with some evidence and that's a good thing. Then all of a sudden these scientists say Bush is crappy because of nuclear power, hell you don't even know if it is power or weapons he is talking about, we need details, you demand the same thing from me and I do you.