24-02-2004 10:39									#211
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quote: If all Christians don't share that specific belief, then obviously "his" religion doesn't represent all of Christianity.

quote: No, his religion is a branch of Catholicism

quote: why are you claiming a reference to Gibson and his religion actually refers to people who don't belong to his religion?

He is a Christian and belongs to a sect of that religion. His religion is Christianity. His religion isn't Pre-Vatican II Catholicism. That's the sect he belongs to under the religion.

quote: I've never heard the phrase "the Catholic sect", have you?

And I've never heard the phrase "the Catholic religion".

I have heard the term Sunni and Shiite sects of Islam. In both cases, the religion is Islam and the sects are groupings under that religion.

quote: Are these religions?

Nope, they are all parts of the Christian religion.

quote: The claim shared by Gibson and members of his religion

You mean Christians.

	24-02-2004 10:39									#212
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quote: Some idiots probably do - but the bible is so contradictory you would be totally confused.

Your avatar does make sense. I keep getting these images of raids on the threads, trying to draw fire.

	24-02-2004 10:40									#213
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Ah yes, the Mormon religion..




Oh, wait, according to Imran there is no such thing because we cannot use the word "religion" in association with a "sect".

quote: Thanks molly... I almost forgot those Mormon's too, who also believe society should be organized on their religious texts.

Shouldn't that be "sect texts"?

	24-02-2004 10:42									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I doubt you sat in a room all day for years, rocking back and forth in an almost trance-like state whilst memorizing every word in the Bible. Let's try to get some perspective here, people.

So your point is that Christians are less devout in their beliefs?

Go to any Christian revivalist meeting or the Charismatics' meetings, and you'll see people supposedly speaking in tongues, or being healed whilst in a 'trance-like' state.

Even the happy clappy gospel services try to get you into a state of fervour through rhythm and sound. It's hardly an Islamic trait.

"Today we'll be flying Religionista Air- chanting or non-chanting, sir?"

I'd rather memorize the Qu'ran than stick hooks into my body like Hindu devotees, or stick one arm up in the air for years like Hindu saddhus, and lose the use of a perfectly good arm to show my religious devotion.

	24-02-2004 10:43									#215
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quote: I keep getting these images of raids on the threads, trying to draw fire.

Makes me wish I had a custom avatar...

	24-02-2004 10:45									#216
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Berz:

quote: On what point?

Atonement of Christ

quote: The claim shared by Gibson and members of his religion that "we" killed Jesus is bogus and I reject this belief and their religion.

If Catholicism is a religion, then so are Mennonites and Episcopalians, Reformed, and even the Adventists.

Secondly, they all agree on the Atonement of Christ, so you are not just attacking the one, but the whole.

As for the Doc, I'll let him defend your points against him. He speaks for me when he does, though.

	24-02-2004 10:45									#217
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Imran -

quote: And I've never heard the phrase "the Catholic religion".

Thx, sig material.

quote: You mean Christians.

So Christians share the same beliefs as Gibson?

	24-02-2004 10:46									#218
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quote: Shouldn't that be "sect texts"?

The Bible is a 'sect text' now?

	24-02-2004 10:47									#219
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quote: So your point is that Christians are less devout in their beliefs?

No. My point is that, while every religion has its share of nutjobs, Islam is the only one at this point in time in which the nutjobs are numerous and politically powerful enough to force their dangerous doctrine onto the population at large. The scary thing about the madrasas isn't what goes on inside them (although that is pretty frightening); it's their large numbers and considerable influence in many parts of the Muslim world that worries me and should worry all other thinking people.

	24-02-2004 10:48									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker So Christians share the same beliefs as Gibson?

Yes, 'The Patriot' was appalling and 'Braveheart' a travesty.

	24-02-2004 10:49									#221
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quote: Thx, sig material.

Go right ahead. It ain't its own religion.

quote: So Christians share the same beliefs as Gibson?

On the main points (ie, following Jesus, the Bible), yes.

You're point is like saying the Christian Coalition are a seperate party. Their party isn't the Republicans. That's a silly argument.

	24-02-2004 10:49									#222
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Gibson is a catholic, which has lots of streams or subgroups.

The difference between us and protties is we keep all our loonies in the tent p*ssing out.

	24-02-2004 10:52									#223
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quote: Any religion worth its salt hopes to 'brainwash' its followers- group meetings, reinforcement of a community focus, sodalities, religious instruction from an early age, Sunday school, school prayer in religious schools

Let me see.

1. group meetings. I meet more often with Catholics then I do other mennonites.

2. reinforcement of a community focus.

I don't see the other folks in my church, outside of church, other than my best friend. So I am a part of their faith community, but the community outside, I am free to see whomever I want.

3 - 5. religious instruction from an early age.

Nope. Never really had any.

6. School prayer? Nope. Never heard of any.

I think we can chalk up your experiences to a very odd group, in that you would not be free to have protestant friends. None of your experiences with Christianity match up with mine.

	24-02-2004 10:54									#224
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Ben -

quote: Atonement of Christ

Is this the same belief that we killed Jesus? I thought it was the belief that Jesus died to relieve us of our sins...

quote: If Catholicism is a religion, then so are Mennonites and Episcopalians, Reformed, and even the Adventists.

You mean they aren't religions? Is "the Mormon religion" an inappropriate use of the word "religion"?

quote: Secondly, they all agree on the Atonement of Christ, so you are not just attacking the one, but the whole.

Who "attacked" this atonement?

quote: As for the Doc, I'll let him defend your points against him. He speaks for me when he does, though.

Why would I want him to defend my points against him? He can't even defend his points against me...

	24-02-2004 10:55									#225
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Of course the Catholic church is the one true church and is the only one to have the fullness of faith free of human error - but apart from that we catholics are just humble christians like everyone else.

	24-02-2004 11:01									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let me see. 1. group meetings. I meet more often with Catholics then I do other mennonites. 2. reinforcement of a community focus. I don't see the other folks in my church, outside of church, other than my best friend. So I am a part of their faith community, but the community outside, I am free to see whomever I want. 3 - 5. religious instruction from an early age. Nope. Never really had any. 6. School prayer? Nope. Never heard of any. I think we can chalk up your experiences to a very odd group, in that you would not be free to have protestant friends. None of your experiences with Christianity match up with mine.

Yeah, a very odd group- Catholics in Great Britain.

So even if my experience of my sect of Christianity doesn't exactly align with yours, so what?

The features I noted are a common part of other Christian sects all over the world. It would be a strange Catholic school in my day that didn't have a school prayer, or have religious instruction from an early age.

It was my grandfather who didn't want me to have Protestant friends, and given that he was Irish from Eire that's hardly surprising.

I was free to consort with idolatrous Hindus, and Sikhs and Muslims though...

	24-02-2004 11:04									#227
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which was your downfall

	24-02-2004 11:09									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse which was your downfall

Ah, but I developed a great taste for home cooked Indian recipes.

Umm, garlic chutney and lamb kofta, lamb pasanda and chapatties hot off the griddle. Beats locusts and honey any day.

	24-02-2004 11:10									#229
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Imran -

quote: The Bible is a 'sect text' now?

Hmm...The Book of Mormon is now the Bible?

quote: Go right ahead. It ain't its own religion.

Would you mind if I altered that slightly to add to my sig? How about this? "Catholicism ain't a religion" - Imran

quote: On the main points (ie, following Jesus, the Bible), yes.

We aren't discussing the "main points", we're discussing ONE point - that "we" killed Jesus.

quote: You're point is like saying the Christian Coalition are a seperate party. Their party isn't the Republicans. That's a silly argument.

You mean that's a silly analogy.

	24-02-2004 11:11									#230
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Jeruslem was a small city, but the Jews made the majority of citizens are were surrounded by a countryside of jews- so don;t be dense Imran- huge difference between jews in a jewish city in a jewish land rebelling and jews in Roman city in a Roman coutnryside rebelling. As for the precepts of the jewish faith- that faith assumed the "secular" authorites to be jewish- why the Jews rebelled against Greek rule earlier.

That can only be said by someone completely ignorant of the Book of Daniel.

	24-02-2004 11:14									#231
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quote: Hmm...The Book of Mormon is now the Bible?

I did say religious texts didn't I? Book of Mormon is a seperate text.. a sect text if you will.

quote: How about this?

I'd prefer if you said "isn't".

quote: We aren't discussing the "main points", we're discussing ONE point - that "we" killed Jesus.

Some Christians believe it and some don't, but you said all of Gibson's religion, which is Christianity.

quote: You mean that's a silly analogy.

I'm glad you think so. It's based exactly on your point that Catholicism is its own religion and not simply part of the Christian religion.

	24-02-2004 11:26									#232
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No Imran - all catholics are christians, not all christians are catholic. Is that so hard to understand?

	24-02-2004 11:33									#233
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Imran -

quote: I did say religious texts didn't I? Book of Mormon is a seperate text.. a sect text if you will.

Well now, you were referring to the religious texts of the Mormons so that include the Book of Mormon. Yeah, "sect text", that sounds better.

Can you explain what in the definition of the word "religion" excludes sects or denominations from being religions?

quote: I'd prefer if you said "isn't".

But you said "ain't". Thx...

quote: Some Christians believe it and some don't, but you said all of Gibson's religion, which is Christianity.

No, I said Gibson's religion, which is a specific brand of Catholicism. If I said Gibson and his religious cohorts believed little green men would precede the 2nd coming and how that was bogus, would you conclude I was criticising all Christianity when many Christians don't believe that?

quote: I'm glad you think so.

Sadly, you don't.

quote: It's based exactly on your point that Catholicism is its own religion and not simply part of the Christian religion.

Where did I say the Catholic religion is not part of Christianity? I've said just the opposite, I just reject this notion that we cannot use the word religion OR sect to describe the various branches of Christianity.

	24-02-2004 11:37									#234
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quote: No Imran - all catholics are christians, not all christians are catholic. Is that so hard to understand?

He's been afflicted by the Strangelove bug.

	24-02-2004 11:43									#235
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Imran, since you've never heard (or seen) the phrase "Catholic religion", type it into google. You'll see it isn't inappropriate to use the word religion in association with sects, including the various denominations of Christianity like catholicism.

	24-02-2004 12:17									#236
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quote: Why would I want him to defend my points against him? He can't even defend his points against me...

I'm so tangled up in that sentence I don't know which way is up.

as for the rest of it, yes, the belief that Christ died for our sins is the Atonement.

	24-02-2004 13:28									#237
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yeah we get freed from unending death because someone else suffered for us - sounds like a good deal to me.

	24-02-2004 13:44									#238
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Ben - Of course you got tangled, look at what I was responding to.

Anyway, is this "atonement" the same as believing I killed Jesus, that you killed Jesus, and that everyone alive today killed Jesus?

Did Jesus want to die for our sins? Did God want Jesus to die for our sins. I forgot to get back to your earlier post dealing with this apparent paradox with atonement, so here goes:

quote: Jesus did not want to serve as a sacrifice, but offered himself so that men could be saved. There would be no need for him to give up his life, had we not sinned.

If he offered, he wanted. And it isn't our fault, who "invented" sin? Who declared this or that is a sin? God? So why would an all-knowing God invent "sin" and then, knowing full well our nature, create a situation where his son has to sacrifice himself for our sins which were created by God in the first place? Do you see the paradox with that? That's like me knowing my baby son will grow up and have sex before marriage only for me to declare that sex before marriage is a "sin", then telling my second born he must now die for the sin of my first born.
Blaming the first born for what I did is illogical...

quote: God wants men not to sin at all.

Then God should not have created sin(ners). And if God is all-powerful, he must not want to stop us from sinning or he would, true? So how do you know God wants us to stop sinning if he allows sin?

quote: Barring that, it took the death of Christ to redeem our sins once and for all. So yes, we are responsible for the death of Christ.

What about Christians who don't/didn't even believe Jesus was crucified? There were many early Christians who believed it was all symbolic. Some believe(d) he was drugged on the cross and helped away later. What if the Romans/Jews involved back then didn't kill him? What if "we", the actual people who had a hand in his death, didn't participate? Jesus would not have died! So it's still illogical to blame people who weren't even alive.

quote: Why should they be praised for inadvertently fulfilling the wishes of God? It's not as if they chose to do so.

Because they served their purpose just as Jesus did. How do you know it was all inadvertent? Maybe God "inspired" them just as God inspired all sorts of actors in the Bible. Maybe God told Pilate and the Sadducees about the role he had planned for them.

Edit: Hey Ben, if I'm not a Christian, does that mean I'm not saved? I mean, if I simply reject Jesus as my savior, then my sins aren't forgiven by God, right? And if my sins aren't forgiven, then Jesus didn't die for me or my sins. And that means I'm no longer responsible for his death, true? So Jesus didin't die for our sins and we aren't responsible for his death. Those who accept him as their savior are responsible for his death, true?

	24-02-2004 19:57									#239
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk That can only be said by someone completely ignorant of the Book of Daniel.

So edumajicate me mr. preacherman.

	25-02-2004 02:54									#240
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quote: Can you explain what in the definition of the word "religion" excludes sects or denominations from being religions?

Common sense. The 'definition' of Socialism says France is socialist. Those who know and read texts on socialism realize that is a load of bollocks. Sects of religions are not seperate religions themselves... otherwise every person would be its own religion. It's absurd to go down that way.

Furthermore, the 'religion' should be the highest spiritual grouping that they consider themselves part of. They consider themselves Christian as do others. Smaller secular groupings under that should be considered sects.

quote: No, I said Gibson's religion, which is a specific brand of Catholicism.

His religion is Christianity. Pre-Vatican II Catholicism isn't a religion.

quote: If I said Gibson and his religious cohorts believed little green men would precede the 2nd coming and how that was bogus, would you conclude I was criticising all Christianity when many Christians don't believe that?

If you criticized his religion then yes, I'd conclude you were criticising all Christians.

quote: I just reject this notion that we cannot use the word religion OR sect to describe the various branches of Christianity.

That's silly. So my parents would belong to the Sunni religion? I don't think so. Religion is the overarching grouping and sects are those underneath the umbrella.

quote: Imran, since you've never heard (or seen) the phrase "Catholic religion", type it into google.

I did... it seems many of them are Protestants seeking to prove that Catholicism isn't really Christianity. It's a form of insult. As for the rest, I can't help other people being ignorant.