21-02-2004 05:33									#1
	Turn 2157 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I just downloaded 2157.

I'll take a look and then let everyone know what I think about how we should proceed.

Please everyone else take a look at it too and let us know what you think.


Mead

	21-02-2004 06:36									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes please everybody takes a look and let us know what you think about it. I probably won't be able to get to it until late tonight myself.

	21-02-2004 07:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

AFter I get off of work, I won't be able to access the internet again until next week Monday....so I'm useless.

	21-02-2004 07:44									#4
	Suffering from ads?

Production Plan 2157

I have filled in most of the below Chart. I have put a question mark in most of the Planned Rush column places because I want us to discuss how we will proceed. Do we want to rush only to get the max number units ready for the next turn? How many extra minerals should we rush to roll over 10 mins in as many cities as possible.


City, Minerals, Producing, Turns, Needs to Rush, Planned Rush
Dacopolis, 10, Drop plasma, 1, 28, ?
Enigma's Vengence, 6, Supply Crawler, 3, 74, 0
Frankyburg, 5, CHANGE to Drop plasma, 1, 8 , ?
Googliegrad, 6, CHANGE to Drop plasma, 3, 88, 0
Hong Hu Kong Hu, 8, Bio Enhancement Center, 6, 90, 0
Jamski's Redemption, 12, Supply Crawler, 1, 28 , ?
Kody's Legacy, 14, F-22, 1, 25, ?
Kommunzia City, 14, F-22, 1, 8, ?
Meadopolis, 13, CHANGE to Drop Plasma, 1, 28, ?
Michanapolis, 10, Drop Scout, 1, 16, ?
New Moscow, 10, F-15, 2, 180, 0
Octavianburg, 8, CHANGE to Supply Crawler, 3, 120, 0
Rokossovgrad, 16, F-22, 2, 52, ?
Seat of Unity, 13, F-15, 1, 8, ?
Static University, 8, Drop Plasma, 1, 8, ?
Vanderburg 18 F-22 1 19
Vevtopia, 11, Drop Crimson, 1, 8, ?
Voltariograd, 11, F-22, 1, 16, ?
Zeropolis, 7, Crawler, 2, 28, ?


I suggest a few changes to the worker and former workload.

BASES
Googliegrad - Turn one of the Doctors to a worker and have it work on the forest north of Googliegrad.

Hong Hu Kong Hu - Pull the worker off the farm and make it a Doctor to stop the Drone Riots

Move the newly made crawler to the forest 2/3 move (two squares on the road) south of Jamski?s redemption. Have it crawl minerals.


FORMERS
One of the two formers southeast of Static University is Working an Echelon Mirror on the same square another is working a Borehole. The one working the Echelon Mirror should be changed to Borehole.

While looking around on the F4 screen I saw some things that caught my notice regarding the state of the Uni, Drone and Peace empires, but I discuss those in another post in this thread.


Mead

Last edited by Mead on 21-02-2004 at 08:12

	21-02-2004 08:04									#5
	Preliminary Observations of Peace, Drones, and Uni Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Below are my observations:


Peace

They have only three cities left.

Calico Island
It looks like they will lose this one next turn. There is a CyCon Cruiser just outside it and it is unoccupied (1-1-1, incomplete)

Atlantis and Pamplona both have two units. They might survive another two to three turns.

Peace will have to land its CP and establish a base, fast.


Drones

They are building seven 6-1-10 missile choppers and will have them ready for use next turn. The also have one drop plasma built now. I think they will take Longreach next turn.

I would prefer if they took its northern neighbor and left us Longreach. Can we talk to them about that?


Uni

They will have an interceptor built in Caboolture (center of the Ruins monoliths), but otherwise no aircraft. They are making an aerospace center in Gardens Point (their HQ base that has 31 mins and 36 energy). They are still an easy target and will remain so (as long as CyCon does reinforce them) for the next 3 to 4 turns.


Mead

	21-02-2004 09:49									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks for the indepth analysis Mead. I have printed it out for reference when I get time for the game later tonight.

	21-02-2004 12:27									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

2157 Before End Turn

I have not pressed end turn yet. Will wait for feedback and press end turn tomorrow night.

	21-02-2004 12:37									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

I have renamed F22 to Apache and F28 to Mirage III. When I designed the Mirage III (<6>-1-12 interceptor) it asks me if I would like to upgrade all F15 to F22 for no cost, and I said yes. So now we don't have the design for F15 any more, and cannot rename it. Wonder why it would let me upgrade a noodle design to chopper design. I had about 4 F15s being build and they are all choppers now. I guess that's ok though. We would have one interceptor.

	21-02-2004 12:50									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Next turn we will have 11 choppers/noodles, 2 drop rovers, 3 drop infantry, and 2 drop probs. The drop units are being built in the bases that are close to the war front because they can only drop within 8 squares. The two bases most close to the war front would be able to produce another drop infantry and drop prob and send them out in 2159.

I have rushed to 10 min carry over in about 2/3 of our bases. Other bases if 1. the rush cost is too high, 2. they will not be rushing another unit the next turn since it is far away from war front, then I only rushed them to 1 turn to completion.

I also upgraded a scout in googliegrad for 50ec to drop plasma, since it is more expensive to rush build it in 1 turn. I'm building another scout there for drone purpose.

I left Franky with building plasma garrison because we already have adequate attack force so I think it won't hurt to have a little abundence in defense, if only so that the Chairman would sleep better.

	21-02-2004 12:58									#12
	Crawlers, formers, teraforming, etc. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I moved around some crawlers so that Marshal could build Apache in one turn. Jamski's crawler was sent to crawl food at condensor and worker relocated to forest.

The former that was working on Echelon mirror was actually accumulating teraforming. It was sent to finish the condensor and after its finish some formers were sent back to build the Borehole.

I would like to build a mini energy park at Mount Doom that is close to Marshal's base and the energy bonus. I would greatly appreciate some suggestions about the design of the energy park.

The next turn when the military forces are built I will send some workers to their old librarain desks. We probably should start to think what we want to research the next too.

That's all that I can think off right now.

	21-02-2004 17:27									#13
	Unit Names Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have looked at your turn, and it seems fine to me

I had some ideas about naming units:
Needlejets could be named CF - X 'ABC', with X being the attack strength (type) and ABC being the nickname. An example for our [6-1-9]Needlejet is CF - 6A 'YANGFIGHTER'.

This would mean:
CF = Communism Fighter / Centauri Fighter / Chiron Fighter
6A = Attack of 6, A because it can attack aircraft (the [6-1-12] is a plain bomber)
'YANGFIGHTER' = the nickname within the Hive and maybe around chiron

While the [6-1-12]Needlejet without dogfighting capability would be CF - 6B 'YANGBOMBER'.
That way we don´t confuse interceptors and bombers.

The choppers I have handeled similarily:
CC - 6 'RED APACHE' for our [6-1-?] copter
CC - 1 'Kozak' for our [1-1-?] copter

While renaming our aircrafts I noticed we´ll have 4 Yangbombers and just one Yangfighter, as it is by now. That´s fine as long as we don´t encounter enemy airforce. But I´d say we need at least 3 to 4 interceptors to kill off enemy aircraft.

Endturn save with reworked unit names

Note: My computer crashed when I first renamed the units, so the save has a reload message. Perhaps someone else could implement the changes from HongHu´s save when my naming style is approved. Please tell me what you think of it.

	21-02-2004 22:29									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks Micha. I could do the rename here too.

	21-02-2004 22:45									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That would be great. just think it´s better to have some system in naming noodles, since there will be so many different types of them.

Another thing:
What about nerve gas pods? I know we don´t have HEC, but maybe the drones could send us a prototype with it? Would a usage of atrocities lead to a global alliance against us? (I mean a triggered one, with all human teams needing to propose peace and pact again...)

	21-02-2004 23:53									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by HongHu I have renamed F22 to Apache and F28 to Mirage III. When I designed the Mirage III (<6>-1-12 interceptor) it asks me if I would like to upgrade all F15 to F22 for no cost, and I said yes. So now we don't have the design for F15 any more, and cannot rename it. Wonder why it would let me upgrade a noodle design to chopper design. I had about 4 F15s being build and they are all choppers now. I guess that's ok though. We would have one interceptor.

I would like us to have 4 to 6 needlejet penetrators.

They have a range of 12 versus 8.

With 4 to 6 of them we can use them to be an aerial blockade on top of ground or naval units to make those units immune from attack.

With 4 to 6 of them we can keep a regular watch on the seas off our coasts. The CyCon, with Maritine Control, can move their transports very quickly each turn. Our Needlejet pentrators can move further.

We could have 4 needlejets (two each turn patrolling out 12 spaces into the seas, wait until the next turn to return to base, then return to base then launch while the other two out to sea, and so on). If Cycon Ships are spotted they can be hit before they reach our shores.



Mead

	22-02-2004 00:11									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by HongHu I have renamed F22 to Apache and F28 to Mirage III. When I designed the Mirage III (<6>-1-12 interceptor) it asks me if I would like to upgrade all F15 to F22 for no cost, and I said yes. So now we don't have the design for F15 any more, and cannot rename it. Wonder why it would let me upgrade a noodle design to chopper design. I had about 4 F15s being build and they are all choppers now. I guess that's ok though. We would have one interceptor.

The renaming is fine. It is less the confusing with the way you have it now.

You can use the workshop to make the needlejet penetator again.

Right now, I would prefer us to have needlejet penetrators instead of interceprtors, please see my prior post. (We will need the penetrators a lot sooner than interceptors)


I strongly recommend changing that interceptor being made in Rokkossovkgrad to a penetatator.


Other than that I see no problems with the turn you propose.

We still have about 24 hours for others to offer their thoughts. Unless someone else sees some thing wrong I suggest you post it at about 45 hours after we received the turn.


Mead

	22-02-2004 00:19									#18
	Re: Preliminary Observations of Peace, Drones, and Uni Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Mead *** Drones They are building seven 6-1-10 missile choppers and will have them ready for use next turn. The also have one drop plasma built now. I think they will take Longreach next turn. I would prefer if they took its northern neighbor and left us Longreach. Can we talk to them about that? ***

Do we want to talk to them about it?

With only one drop unit (on an infantry chassis) it looks like the Drones will only be able to take one base this next turn and another the following. Once we get our forces deployed we should be able to take a lot more cities very quickly.

It would be nice to work with them to more quickly take the Uni holdings from the AOE.


Mead

	22-02-2004 09:17									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok I have never disclosed the attacking plan yet. The plan is to finish PUT off in two turns with the combined force from us and Drones. The first turn we take 3 bases, the second we take the rest.

For penetrators I'll see if I could still change a couple choppers back to penetrators. Currently we already have one penetrator that we can use to patrol the coast line. If I can't change them (because of the rush ecs) I will build another two or three the next turn in the east coast. They will not be used for invading PUT but will be used to patrol the east coastle line. I hope I can change some though, because I don't know if we want to keep a larger than necessary military for a long time if we are not going to invade CCs right after the PUT war. I will also rename the penetrators to a bomber name (are penetrators bombers?)

I want to keep that interceptor because it may turn out to be useful in case the PUT gets a couple air units in the air. What do you think?

	22-02-2004 09:27									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Mead, what is the benefit of penetrator vs choppers? I think they all have a range of 12. And I know choppers can do multiple attacks. Are penetrators better to use as a patrol force?

	22-02-2004 09:50									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just checked the turn. Unfortunetaly we would not be able to change the choppers to penetrators. I will not post the save to the public forum today. If you feel strongly that we should change that interceptor to penetrators we could still do that.

I do realize now that interceptors has less range (9 vs 12). Also choppers can be attacked while penetrators cannot while at air.

	22-02-2004 10:08									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We have built a sensor array in the lake with orange ball area for a future base site. Should we let the peace settle there?

	22-02-2004 10:20									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here's the new end turn save.

I have changed two libarains to technicians to get us a little more money. We have 68ecs now, will get 66 ecs next turn and will get a little less than 100 ecs I think from the stockpile bug. I'm sending PEACE 50 ecs preaccepted. I feel that we should try to help them a little more even if we are also pressed for money ourselves. We will need to upgrade that 1-1-12 copter next turn (90ecs I think) but I don't believe we would need to rush a lot of units so we should do fine.

I will try to check back in tomorrow afternoon (15 hours from now). The only decision we still need to make is wether we should change the interceptor to penetrator. If you guys feel that we should please change this and press end turn and post it.

Other things need to do is:
1. Decide where to let the peace build their base and communicate this to them.
2. Talk to Drones about letting us take longreach.
3. Talk to Drones about idea of letting both teams into both forums. (Less urgent)
4. Prepare for motion for planet council?
5. Need design for energy park at Mount Doom.

I would appreciate all of your helps on these tasks.

	22-02-2004 20:30									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Mead, what is the benefit of penetrator vs choppers? I think they all have a range of 12. And I know choppers can do multiple attacks. Are penetrators better to use as a patrol force?

Choppers v. Penetrators

Choppers
Can do multible attack (the best thing about them)

Can fly 12 spaces per turn, but must land in a base or will incur damage. Plus while on the ground they are subject to attack and probe capture.


Needlejet Penetrators
Can only do one attack per every two turns (turn one fly out and attack, turn two return to base; the worst thing about them)

Can recon far and wide. The Penetrator flys out 12 spaces and if it comes across another faction's unit it finds it. Then at the end of that turn it waits there, in the air. Another faction cannot move through the square it occupies "the aerial blockage". Plus while in the air there, if another faction moves by the Penetrator, that other unit is discovered. The next turn the Penetrator returns to base (perhaps by a different route) and recons that area again.

With Penetrators we can safely patrol out 12 spaces from our coasts.

With choppers we can only patrol out 6 spaces from our coasts.

I understand that CyCon has naval units that can at least move 6 spaces per turn.

My suggestion for 2157:
Continue to make the choppers that are under construction. Change the Interceptor in Rokkossvkgrad to a Penetrator (according to my simulation here, you should be able to make the change and have it finished and ready to use in 2158 without any addtional ECs). Next turn make a couple more Penetrators ready for use in 2159.

In 2158 start air patrols off our coasts.


Mead

	22-02-2004 20:38									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Here's the new end turn save. I have changed two libarains to technicians to get us a little more money. We have 68ecs now, will get 66 ecs next turn and will get a little less than 100 ecs I think from the stockpile bug. I'm sending PEACE 50 ecs preaccepted. I feel that we should try to help them a little more even if we are also pressed for money ourselves. We will need to upgrade that 1-1-12 copter next turn (90ecs I think) but I don't believe we would need to rush a lot of units so we should do fine. I will try to check back in tomorrow afternoon (15 hours from now). The only decision we still need to make is wether we should change the interceptor to penetrator. If you guys feel that we should please change this and press end turn and post it. Other things need to do is: 1. Decide where to let the peace build their base and communicate this to them. 2. Talk to Drones about letting us take longreach. 3. Talk to Drones about idea of letting both teams into both forums. (Less urgent) 4. Prepare for motion for planet council? 5. Need design for energy park at Mount Doom. I would appreciate all of your helps on these tasks.

Important.
There is something we need to make sure of.


I recall from playing SP something like that you could not establish a base in a Pact members territory without breaking the Pact first. I think the reason is because establishing a base in a Pact member's territory is consider to be a hostile act.

If this is the case then Peace and us should break Pact just before they enter our terriotory to allow them to establish a base.

We should not break the Pact after they enter our territory because that should transport them back to their nearest base!


What does everyone else think?


Mead

	22-02-2004 21:07									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Since when can you place a base on foreign territory??? You´d have to find an unclaimed spot first, that´s our problem.

	23-02-2004 00:31									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh gosh. I'm so glad that you guys are here. See that's why I said I'm bad at wars and other things. I remember now that it will be a problem if they want to set up a base at our land. I need a detailed plan about how and when we should do what.

I'm going to change the interceptor to penetrator and press end turn and post it.

	23-02-2004 05:26									#28
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Micha Since when can you place a base on foreign territory??? You´d have to find an unclaimed spot first, that´s our problem.

They can establish a base on our southern coastline, even though it is in our territory.

They can only do this if they are not in a Pact with us.


I just ran a simulation on an old Trans SMAX single player game save I had to test this. This is what I found:

I was playing Hive, Pactmate was Cult.

While in Pact I tried to establish a base in Cultist territory and the following message came up.

"Chairman, our Pact of Brotherhood with Prohet Cha Dawn of the Planet Cult Precludes us from building bases in Cultist territory."

So, I clicked on the Comm menu and right click broke the Pact. The following message came up.

"Our Pact of Brotherhood with the Planet Cult has ended. All Cultist units have been removed from our territory. 5 units have been removed from cultist territitory and returned to our nearest bases."

I reloaded the test game, broke the Pact and then moved a colony pod into Cultist territory and, while in treaty but not in Pact, I tried to establish a base. I got the following message with two options.

"Chairman, our treaty with Prophet Dawn of the Planet Cult precludes us from building bases in Cultist territory.

NEVER MIND

BREAK TREATY

OK"

I then chose to break the treaty and my base was established.

The Cults then went into Vendetta against me.



From this test I conclude the following if we are going to allow Peace to establish a base on our territory:

1. Peace and us must break Pact before they enter our territory otherwise all of their units that are within our territory will automatically be returned to their nearest base once we break pact.

2. Once we break Pact their units and our units will not be able to occupy the same squares (or move through us) until we restablish Pact.

3. They must build their base before we reestablish Pact.

4. Once they build their base in our territory it is very likely that the game will automatically change the Treaty between us to Vendetta and we will have to restablish the Pact manually.

5. We need to be careful not to have our units in a position that would block their movement, because once we are out of Pact they cannot move through our units or occupy the same square.

6. Because I am not sure what would happen if both Peace and Hive units occupiped the same square, outside of both the Hive and Peace territory, when Pact was broken I think we should avoid it.

6a. We should also be careful not to try to move our units into the same square as their's while in treaty. Attempting to do so will result in attacking and destroying their units.

7. When we escort the Peace units in let's have our units behing them, providing a rear guard action.

8. Let's get them landed, established, and protected as soon as possible.

Mead

	23-02-2004 05:36									#29
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Oh gosh. I'm so glad that you guys are here. See that's why I said I'm bad at wars and other things. I remember now that it will be a problem if they want to set up a base at our land. I need a detailed plan about how and when we should do what. I'm going to change the interceptor to penetrator and press end turn and post it.

Thanks.

Once its made let's think about moving it down south and landing it in a southern base flying it over the ocean as much as possible.

Mead

	23-02-2004 05:38									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks for clarifying. Must be a new feature with SMAX, for I have never heard of it when playing plain SMAC. But then, I´m not a PBEMer