22-02-2004 03:01									#31
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Hell, boys, in some districts in Teksus, we all still shoot the little mavericks in the ass with a shotgun load of rock salt when they act up.

	22-02-2004 03:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel not for a couple of hours. send him to his room, until he promisses not to do it again, and if he does, THEN send him for a lot of time. Then, he'll understand.

You've not answered the real question. We live in a society that defines physical pain as the worse bad. Why?

Young kids are unable of moral reflexion- they only understand punishment and reward. You must punish them in a way. So, why is physical pain an inappropriate way to go?

	22-02-2004 03:05									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Paddling as a form of punishment in school is still allowed in 22 of the United States.

Good grief. I remember that from the Babtist summercamp. We were ordered into canoes which were defineatly not seaworthy. Me and my friend paddled like hell, bet we sunk midways across the lake.

	22-02-2004 03:06									#34
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quote: You've not answered the real question. We live in a society that defines physical pain as the worse bad. Why? Young kids are unable of moral reflexion- they only understand punishment and reward. You must punish them in a way. So, why is physical pain an inappropriate way to go?

I don't know, I did have moral reflexion. I hated to hurt my parents, and they looked like they took offence at my bad behavior, so I stopped.

	22-02-2004 03:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't know, I did have moral reflexion. I hated to hurt my parents, and they looked like they took offence at my bad behavior, so I stopped.

Well, I know Kohlberg is contested, but here are the six 'stages':

-reward and punishment
-instrumentalization
-good boy
-social order
-social contract
-universal principles

It seems like what you describe is stage 3- morality is about getting your peers' approval. Depending on education and innate intelligence, this is usually the level of kids aged 7-12.
The only moral level that doesn't need a punishment to function is level 6. All others require some form of enforcement. The decision that pain would not be an enforcement tool is purely arbitrary.

From my personal memory, I remember that I rarely truly regretted what I did for the sake of it, but rather for seeing my parents (who held the monopoly of the 'good boy' statement) disappointed.
True, at this point, physical pain is rarely required, but that's because the individual has mastered more complex forms of moral behavior, which is just another form of inflicting 'pain'.

	22-02-2004 03:23									#36
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I support beating children as long as a doctor is present to make sure that the kid will survive and to also guarantee that the injuries will be easily concealed. A good method is using a baseball bat to hit him in his feet's sole.

	22-02-2004 03:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude I went to private schools in Michigan and was paddled quite often. Actually, the teacher usually used a yardstick or pointer. I'm not sure whether or not I support it, but I will say one thing, there were alot less problems and the faculty had alot more control of the schools then they do now.

You can't suggest that using the paddle helped keep control when you say you had to be subjected to it quite often... if it was successful you wouldn't have received it more than once, surely...

	22-02-2004 03:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Odd I support beating children as long as a doctor is present to make sure that the kid will survive and to also guarantee that the injuries will be easily concealed. A good method is using a baseball bat to hit him in his feet's sole.

	22-02-2004 03:35									#39
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One-off success or nothing? Nah.

Some skulls are thicker than others, and take longer to crack.

	22-02-2004 03:36									#40
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Works better than "time outs"

	22-02-2004 03:43									#41
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I support paddling

	22-02-2004 03:55									#42
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So I'm correct in assuming all the non-corporal punishment people don't have their own kids?

Azazel? Whaleboy?

	22-02-2004 03:56									#43
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I think coporeal punishment is sometimes a necessity as a parent. Because kids (especially young kids) are sometimes completely unwilling to have a moral reflection.

But I don't think it is the teacher's role to beat a kid. A teacher is here to transfer knowledge. He's not here to replace the parents at teaching discipline.

On these grounds, I am actually not in complete disagreement with recess' watchers physically punishing bullies for having hurt their classmates. Of course, such a thing would need clearance from the parents and an accountable process.

	22-02-2004 03:57									#44
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In regards to this sort of punishment in school, I would demand that the school call me before they did it.

	22-02-2004 04:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie You can't suggest that using the paddle helped keep control when you say you had to be subjected to it quite often... if it was successful you wouldn't have received it more than once, surely...

Every kid is different. Some kids are better behaved, some are hell-raisers. They start out that way, and they're like that for the rest of their lives.

	22-02-2004 04:12									#46
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I wish to express moral outrage at corporal punishment, though I apparently don't see the need to justify my opinion in any way shape or form.

	22-02-2004 04:16									#47
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I am suitably outraged at your outrage.

	22-02-2004 04:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris No, but he did hit her recently (he's now 18). She threw him out, and now he lives at my dad's house. Since my dad is huge and strong, he's not been annoying him (bastard).

I realize I'm venturing into very sensitive territory here, but in most families, children don't physically attack their parents once they've reached a certain point of maturity, regardless of whether or not the parent is strong enough to hit back and hurt.

I'd like to reiterate that we are talking about paddling as a routine punishment performed by public schools here, not some sort of desperate-measures Scared Straight thing for kids with APD, or a private decision by parents.

Schools, like any institution, do in fact require discipline (ahem, Spiffor). But I'm inclined to believe that there's enough brute physical antagonism in our schoolyards without the teachers chiming in as a disciplinary measure.

	22-02-2004 05:53									#49
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Elok, I agree with you. My example was quite extreme.

I tend to favor Spiffor's position: yes to corporal punishment, but not in school.

	22-02-2004 07:48									#50
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Well, if some here feel that corporal punishment woks, lets take it to the logical conclusion- all teachers must be allowed to, at least once a year, execute one unrully student in front of the class as an example. Imagine your teahcer took that bastard tommy and shot him down, and then had the other kids clean up the corpse? No one would EVER question teacher ever again..

Remember folks, Rule of Terror work!

	22-02-2004 07:58									#51
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I would be in support of that. Not only would the sacrafice make the students shut up, it would create some sense of order in this chaotic nation.
It would also make the students smarter

Edit: AND it would remove such a stupid, unruly student from the gene pool!

	22-02-2004 08:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Schools, like any institution, do in fact require discipline (ahem, Spiffor).

Yup, but it is not their role to teach discipline IMHO. And enforcement of discipline at school definitely doesn't requires corporeal punishment: put the unruly kid one hour in an empty room (except for the warden), where he'll get bored like hell, have him lectured by the director, or simply give him bad marks and warn the parents for them to teach their kid accordingly.

	22-02-2004 09:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT *When you give your opinion, can you please say whether you're a parent? Thanks!

You're presuming the superiority of your position, based on your own personal opinion of qualification to boot.
* Enigma_Nova slaps JohnT's egotic head around with a large trout

I wasn't a parent at any time, but was a child for a while.
Sweeping punishment doesn't cut it for me.
If a child is smart enough to understand the error in their actions, explain it to them.*
*please note that rules can be ineffective and stupid. More than once I've had a kid know what they were on about.
If a child -isn't- smart enough, out come the canes!

The next issue is Malice, but I don't exactly see how pain solves malice - in that instance I'd recomment separating the malicious from the non-malicious students (as in prision) and letting them sort each-other out, if they're smart enough to understand such a thing.
If they're malicious and stupid, shoot them and save everybody the hassle.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That's the point: what's so wrong with physical pain? Why must it be terribly worse than psychological torture (when you're a baby, spending a few hours in a dark closet is TERRIBLE).

Psych torture... I share the same opinion above, save exception that if a child wants to go through boot camp I'm OK with them going through boot camp!

	22-02-2004 10:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You've not answered the real question. We live in a society that defines physical pain as the worse bad. Why?

Because you can see the results of physical pain but not see the results of psychological trauma (so easily), and in this society, ignorance is bliss.
Awareness of the human condition isn't so common these days :/

quote: Young kids are unable of moral reflexion-

MOST young kids, Boris.
Some people understand stuff.
Point taken same said people can often understand stuff better than those enforcing the rules - and the fools that presume they are correct are locked in a struggle with the brains that see their error.
I'm an example.

quote: Well, I know Kohlberg is contested, but here are the six 'stages':

* Enigma_Nova googles for Kohlberg and reads some stuff - will reply after reading

Spiffor:
In an ideal world where parents knew what they were on about, the idea of having them teach their children would work.

Elok:
Yeah, I attacked my parents. Thought nothing of it, too. The fools deserved it.

	22-02-2004 10:13									#55
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I'm not in favor of corporal punishment at school, but the idea that those kids whose parents favor it get whacked while those whose parents don't especially bothers me. It means that those kids whose parents favor spanking get treated differently than the others. Surely this must instill at least some resentment in the punished kids.

Imagine if you were the only kid in class whose parents approved of spanking, so when the whole class acted up you were the one who got whupped.

Imagine if you were the only one in class whose parents didn't allow spanking so that when the whole class acted up you were the only one who didn't get whupped.

	22-02-2004 10:15									#56
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Kohlberg sure can't explain my ideology for crap, the only major difference being I support my own decisions!
Consider him contested.

	22-02-2004 10:19									#57
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quote: You're presuming the superiority of your position, based on your own personal opinion of qualification to boot.

Why, yes. Yes I am. And it is a reasonable presumption as there is nothing, nothing in life that highlights the difference between "knowledge" and "experience" than parenting. It is something that cannot be taught from a book, it is something that cannot be reasoned, it MUST be experienced, or else you truly have no clue.

	22-02-2004 10:21									#58
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quote: If a child is smart enough to understand the error in their actions, explain it to them.*

You haven't the slightest idea what a child is, or else you wouldn't make such inexperienced statements.

	22-02-2004 11:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT As a parent*, all I can say is: I see nothing wrong with this. Deal with it, AZ. (and weren't you leaving, anyway? ) *When you give your opinion, can you please say whether you're a parent? Thanks!

JohnT...tell Sophie she has nothing to worry about...Knox county doesn't paddle.



I am a parent and I wish they did use corporal punishment. The system they use now includes in and out of school suspensions. The kids look at this as time off, not as punishment. My step son could care less about missing a day of school, but he definately doesn't want his ass busted. 15 minutes in the principals office to see the error of your ways or a day spent staring at a wall while doodling in your notebook? Keep my kid in class and bust his ass if he gets out of line. Schools would work so much better.

	22-02-2004 11:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: You're presuming the superiority of your position, based on your own personal opinion of qualification to boot. Why, yes. Yes I am. And it is a reasonable presumption as there is nothing, nothing in life that highlights the difference between "knowledge" and "experience" than parenting. It is something that cannot be taught from a book, it is something that cannot be reasoned, it MUST be experienced, or else you truly have no clue.

Indeed this is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced posts I have ever seen on 'Poly.