23-02-2004 21:44									#31
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BTW, something strange perhaps: We know Lego is about to finish Smith's, possibly next turn (otherwise it's in 2 turns, in which case they would have changed next turn and not this). Then why is GoW asking for econ? That's another totally useless tech, at least once Smith's is built...

DeepO

	23-02-2004 21:46									#32
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Oh I agree, I was just throwing it out there.


One point-

After marines, we pull everything to the cities except for mountain guards. The enemy then can either land and absorb a round of fire or attack a city with marines. If they just land on flat land, cavs would be better than guerillas for attacking them, due to the retreat/return to city to heal/re-garrison. Any landing might be a ruse, to pull from cities, so getting cavs back could help.

	23-02-2004 21:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, something strange perhaps: We know Lego is about to finish Smith's, possibly next turn (otherwise it's in 2 turns, in which case they would have changed next turn and not this). Then why is GoW asking for econ? That's another totally useless tech, at least once Smith's is built... DeepO

bizarro, eh? maybe they want to run some cities on wealth

	23-02-2004 21:50									#34
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We ought to get going with a study of combat effectiveness. For a given number of shields, what balance of cavalry (retreat, lower killing power), guerillas (cheaper, slightly better killing power) and artillery (if we get rubber) works best against invading stacks of infantry (and other attackers?) What are the costs for various units? IIRC arty and cavalry are both 70. What about guerillas? Infantry are 80, aren't they?

	23-02-2004 21:54									#35
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maybe we should move this discussion to the spartan thread... I'll start

DeepO

	24-02-2004 03:54									#36
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We shouldn't forget the retreat ability of Cavalry, though. That gives them an edge over Guerillas in counter attack - and RR or not, we might be counter attacking over Stormian territory outside our cultural borders.

Having said that, I don't think we should be spending on Mil Trad now, with no attack on Lego or Stormia pending.

The logical extension of a no-horse approach would be to melt down some surplus knights, as we did with the boats. I feel it's too early to discard them, though.

	24-02-2004 04:00									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus The logical extension of a no-horse approach would be to melt down some surplus knights, as we did with the boats. I feel it's too early to discard them, though.

It would certainly be too early for that. However, I wouldn't mind taking some of that excess forces off our loan list. In which case not the knights, but the WCs should go. They will cost most to upgrade, and are thus the most obsolete units we have... even a warrior might proof more useful as a guerilla.

Don't disband all of them at once, though. We might need a few for easy filling of sea wall holes. But if we can gain another 10 gpt, why wait? If it is absolutely certain we will not join any Lego invasion adventure, they can go.

DeepO

	24-02-2004 04:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by vulture ND got back to me on Friday to say that our offer on Physics was too high. I would have posted here before, but Thursday night my house was broken into and my laptop was stolen, so this is the first time I've been able to check in since then. Do we go back to 600 gold, or go with some other plan?

Sh*t - sorry to hear about the break-in. I hope things are OK.


There are (at least) 2 methods of tech pricing. One is the gold equivalent of the current beaker price - or the opportunity cost. This profits the vendor, and is similar to tech pricing in Single Player. Another is the shared cost between 2 allies, where both parties split the profits.

ND's price is right for the second method. As we are entering a tech alliance with them, the full business rate may not be appropriate, and their offer might be fair.

OTOH, our tech deals with GoW have seen them paying full market price on the undepreciated beaker difference.

Would it be possible to convey to ND that as tech allies, rather than open market traders, we are reconsidering their offer - that'd be good diplomatically. If it's also possible to explain the difference in pricing approach (maybe just use the English, if translation is awkward) that could ease fears they might have that we were driving too hard a bargain.

There's more to this, though, as Deepo's suggested deal structure - including ToG and Coal warrants discussion...

	24-02-2004 04:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vulture artillery (if we get rubber)

Beautiful Artillery doesn't need rubber!

	24-02-2004 04:33									#40
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man vulture, i glossed over your post and totally missed that you had a break in. that sucks. I've never had my house broken into, but i have had my car broken into several times (ripping out my in-dash cd player once and nearly a 2nd time, cops showed up) scary stuff. did you have insurance on the laptop? This reminds me that i've been forgetting to get renter's insurance for my townhouse.

hope you're doing ok bud.

	24-02-2004 04:37									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, something strange perhaps: We know Lego is about to finish Smith's, possibly next turn (otherwise it's in 2 turns, in which case they would have changed next turn and not this). Then why is GoW asking for econ? That's another totally useless tech, at least once Smith's is built... DeepO

GoW hadn't seen the Smiths switch when they mentioned that. They were a bit hazy on mandatory and pre-requisite techs in the chat, though. Perhaps they're not planning quite as keenly as they did to get Leo's.

	24-02-2004 05:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO What about these two proposal to ND and GoW: GoW: ToG next turn in exchange for - the medicine - steam swap in less than 11 turns from now (and I don't mind telling them we're going for ToE and we need them to block Lego, we're at a very tight schedule) - coal for 20 turns in case we don't have it in our territory, and they have 2 sources or more. In which case we'll transfer steam up front (before Medicine). Deal can start at our request, and needs to be started within 21 turns after receiving steam or is the promise is declared void. ND: Physics and ToG next turn, for: - 600 gold - 2 lux for 20 turns - Coal for 20 turns in case we have none, and they have 2 sources or more. I think they might go for that, it's not a bad deal for them. Further: we might want to tell GoW and ND that our analysis shows it is likely Lego is capable of a sea wall of their own... DeepO

Interesting...

I think these look very attractive deals for GoW and ND. They pay cost-free assets for our produced assets. Slightly too attractive, perhaps - might we be selling ourselves a little short - or are we just betting on not having coal? If we have coal, then GoW get a tech for free, and ND get a tech for 2 lux.

Thing is, I don't know what the value of coal is. Priceless, maybe, in a game like this. Lux trades have all been one-for-one, so I don't know the cash value of them either.

Wheras I get the feeling that GoW are currently seeing the game as we do, geo-strategically, I wonder sometimes whether ND have other ideas. Maybe they fancy their chances of taking Bob, then Stormia, then just enough of Lego to get a domination before Lego build their SS. They might be planning on nuking a developed SS bid. OTOH, they would surely expect Lego to do something before then.

	24-02-2004 05:37									#43
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vulture - Sucks about the break-in.

A bit of humor for everyone:

The one and only break-in I've ever had was in my last apt. About 2am, I heard some glass breaking upstairs in my then duplex. I figured a cat had knocked something over, so I started lumbering upstairs to see what it was, yelling at the cats. As my head breached the level of the top floor, I looked over to see this Asian dude trying to collect up a blanket on which he had spread out some family silver, small electronics, etc. I bellowed and started charging... he slipped by me and bolted out the front door (with nothing). I started chasing him, and...

Remembered that I had been sleeping in the buff.

	24-02-2004 06:00									#45
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Yeah, well, humor or... dread.

	24-02-2004 06:11									#46
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Could this be "Bathrobe Humour?"

	24-02-2004 06:17									#47
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Does anyone have comments on the tech deals DeepO suggested?

	24-02-2004 06:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Does anyone have comments on the tech deals DeepO suggested?

I think they're great. Certainly anything is better than getting outright owned like we did with feudalism. I think these offers will help build good will between the 3 teams. We are in a bit of a spot, we need them to research decent techs, but they can't give us much right now. I'm very cool with what deepo suggested. I just wish that rubber wasn't so far away to throw in an agreement about similarly.

	24-02-2004 06:43									#49
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Maybe in the spirit of goodwill we should advise GoW that we're closing on Cope's and Newton.

We're only in a hurry with GoW, not ND. Lets accept the 600g, explaining that we can give them 'Special Price for good Amigo ' and then offer a similar deal to the one DeepO suggested, but for Magnetism and ToG.

	24-02-2004 07:43									#50
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chat now in #GoW_CoFa

	24-02-2004 08:15									#51
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Yes it is sad to hear about a break in. I stayed in hotel and woke up to find someone has lifted my cash and nothing else and I never woke up.

T, I may have met him with no clothes on, but I would be showing some 240 grain semi wad cutters inside a 44 mag. But I would not chase em. If his hands are empty he can go, if he has a weapon, he will be corpse.

	24-02-2004 08:57									#52
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Chatted with MZ and UnO. I'll post the log later, but basically they liked the ToG deal and will be putting it to their forum, and checking their research capability. They approve our attempts to go for ToE / Hoov to deny Lego, and like the idea of a lux embargo. They have a second Gems coming online soon.

- and the 200g they owe is on the post.

I'll post the log later.

	24-02-2004 14:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus GoW hadn't seen the Smiths switch when they mentioned that. They were a bit hazy on mandatory and pre-requisite techs in the chat, though. Perhaps they're not planning quite as keenly as they did to get Leo's.

I never thought of GoW as excellent planners, especially not with regards to Leo. They could have done the same without wasting all those turns in their capital doing a GLib prebuild. And I think it has become standard practice by now to boost the population of cities that are doing wonder building... Imperial city still isn't size 12.

I think it was more a question of mandatory / optional techs. But seriously, if Econ would have been mandatory, wouldn't we have researched it long ago? Smith's a nice wonder, for us it would currently be worth ~20gpt, and this will only increase over time.

DeepO

	24-02-2004 15:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I think these look very attractive deals for GoW and ND. They pay cost-free assets for our produced assets. Slightly too attractive, perhaps - might we be selling ourselves a little short - or are we just betting on not having coal? If we have coal, then GoW get a tech for free, and ND get a tech for 2 lux.

We have to make these attractive deals for both of them. And they are not really that cheap as it seems at first sight. GoW gives us ToE and Hoover, or at least gives us all possibility to get it if we don't do anything stupid. For being sure we get ToE, we need coal and we need medicine... (well, we could do without coal for ToE, but we'll need it for Hoover)

quote: Thing is, I don't know what the value of coal is. Priceless, maybe, in a game like this. Lux trades have all been one-for-one, so I don't know the cash value of them either.

As to the value of lux: we could calculate that. Currently, we're running at 0% lux, right? so an extra lux isn't worth much to us. It will get a few cities in WLTKD, lowering corruption, so at most 10 gpt or so. Losing one lux, however, will be something else if we have to set 10% lux. In that case, it will cost us 50-60 gpt? I don't know the exact figures, but a lot.

Coal is something very differently. It is nearly priceless... but we don't need it for the duration of the game, only to RR our continent (which will be 40 turns or so). Coal will give us defensive bonusses, but let's concentrate on one aspect of RRs: more shields. As mentioned before, every RRed tile gives +1spt (before waste), even if it has irrigation. we have some 170(?) tiles, including RP... so after waste, RR will net us over 100 spt. So, as a rough assumption, RR is worth 100 spt to us and at a rate of 1 shield equals 1 gold (for rushing 1 shield is worth 4 gold), that means 100 gpt.... but you can build a lot more stuff with this, so it only gets worse over time. If we can't build banks and stock exchanges because we need the shields for basic defense, we can easily lose out on 200 gpt or more.

DeepO

	24-02-2004 15:46									#55
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One final remark: GoW is most critical for us, but I wouldn't leave ND out of the loop. We should try to get that deal asap as well... otherwise they think they are being disadvantaged compared to GoW, and we'll need them too. At least until we can safely attack anyone we want to

DeepO

	24-02-2004 16:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO As mentioned before, every RRed tile gives +1spt (before waste), even if it has irrigation. we have some 170(?) tiles, including RP... so after waste, RR will net us over 100 spt.

Railroads increase the effect of tile improvement (except road). So irrigated tiles don't get a bonus shield per turn, but a bonus food per turn.

	24-02-2004 17:04									#57
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SR, for every irrigated tile that gets RRed, you can switch one irrigation to a mine. The net effect is that if you don't want extra food (and seeing that our cities are mostly maxed out we don't need extra food), you gain 1 shield per worked tile. Sometimes there is a discrepancy of one shield due to too many floodplains, but otherwise every inland city of size 12 gets +12 spt. Before waste, of course.

DeepO

	24-02-2004 19:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO One final remark: GoW is most critical for us, but I wouldn't leave ND out of the loop. We should try to get that deal asap as well... otherwise they think they are being disadvantaged compared to GoW, and we'll need them too. At least until we can safely attack anyone we want to DeepO

Let's take the 600g for Physics, then and maybe Vulture can work a version of the coal deal for ToG and Magnets with them.

	24-02-2004 19:31									#59
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quickie email to ND to try and stop them running to Lego : (Hopefully vulture can follow up with the proposal for the coal deal.)

quote: 600g for Physics then - yes, GS will go with that. Our ambassador will contact you soon with a suggested deal for Magnetism and Theory of Gravity, which we can also trade with you.

	24-02-2004 21:13									#60
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I didn't realize ND needs two more techs... the price would be too low for that, but we can always ask for 4 lux + coal.

DeepO