22-02-2004 18:50									#1
	Turn 179 : 640AD Support Apolyton

News

ND still not making us an offer for physics
Vulture, any chance of chasing ND about this?

Lego have switched the Sistine to Smiths

Lego have Physics. They will save so much gold on their GA so they can sustain a 4 turn pace for some time beyond.

ToG(4) + Magnetism (4) + Freebie (0) + Steam/Med (4) + Electricity (4) + Sci Meth (4) = 20 turns. The same time as our fastest possible path to Sci Meth + the prebuild. Lego go before us so they have won the game if they get Steam or Medicine from Vox.

I will be frank. I think GS-GoW-ND should threaten Vox with DEATH if they give Lego their free tech

I checked the Hurricane situation - in fact it is comfortably on course for the original schedule - completion on T182, and the tight squeeze was not a mistake but a chance of shaving a turn off. It's now on 361 shields, and could get another 20s this turn, provided the last 1f at -1fpt does not cause shrinkage. However, even if it did manage to stay at S12 for one more turn it could only manage 17s the next turn.

	22-02-2004 19:12									#2
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Hang on - at 22spt in Arashi we'll have ToE in 19 turns, not 20, but that's at -1ftp with 10f in the box. We'll need coal to maintain it.

	22-02-2004 19:17									#3
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As for Vox - Sleepy, I think we should start by explaining to Vox that giving Lego the freebie will (a) hand Lego the game and (b) be seen in GS as proof that allowing them to live was a disastrous mistake, and (c) seriously upset the 3 remaining non-Legonian powers in the game.

There's little doubt now doubt in my mind that their Democracy caper was just a lame and naive mission for Lego to pinch tech from us.

	22-02-2004 19:24									#4
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Son of a *****

I say we build Sistine. **** 'em


CH, re: vox

I am going to be incommunicado for a few days coming up, monday-late wednesday so I can't work the Vox front. Damn Damn Damn. I will see what i can do today.

I will start by offering them physics, so hold the turn for a few hours, 'kay? That will at least start the ball rolling talking to them again. And I think we can turn up the heat a little bit.


Crap. Why do I have to be away now, when the action is heating up and I actually have a job to do?!?!?!?

	22-02-2004 19:31									#5
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Yes, now Lego have Physics we can try offering that to Vox, and lets hope I was completely wrong about them above. If we can get a dialogue going now that'd be good. A chat might be good.

	22-02-2004 19:39									#6
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I've sent a short message, maybe it will get the ball rolling a bit.

I'm glad that we are between lego and vox's turn, makes vox squirm under questioning a bit.

	22-02-2004 20:05									#7
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Galleys - our north-west galley is off Vox's west coast at Hope-4444.

It could either head directly south looking for pickets, and being closer to upgrade in Blizzard, or go further east to snoop Vox's and then Lego's coast. Preferences?

The far north galley will continue east (nothing up north - too close to edge) before coming south too - so this one will have an option of tracking the coast on a southern journey in 3-4 turns.

	22-02-2004 20:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I've sent a short message, maybe it will get the ball rolling a bit. I'm glad that we are between lego and vox's turn, makes vox squirm under questioning a bit.

I'll hang onto the save before sending it, to keep turns from moving too fast for the diplo (I'll be unavailable myself on Monday). The last turn was quick again.

	22-02-2004 20:20									#9
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We can pull back to 60% and +46gpt for our last turn on ToG, and our last turn of the Middle Ages.

No-one has Mil Trad yet.

	22-02-2004 20:41									#10
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Start

No offer from ND for Physics
EotS builds Cathedral, starts Hoover Dam! (Colosseum)
Cyclone builds worker, starts worker



Moves

Hurricane has to settle for Copes in 3. Set to 14spt +1fpt.
This allows EotS to get 20spt -1fpt. 9f in box. If we have coal in 7 turns we can get the food back.
Eli needs only 4s for worker. Hill at Eli-3 allocated to Inchon

Western galley to Eli
2 Eastern galleys towards Hurricane
N gelley mves 666
NE galley moves 222 and sees Vox caravel.


2 workers joing fortressing at Hurr-9
worker from Cyclone moves north


Current Builds

Eli : Worker in 1
Inchon : CH in 5 - using hill.
WoC : CH in 1
Inchoff : Harb in 10
Diss : Courthouse in 3 (showing Oracle)
Santa Ana : Lib in 8
Blizzard : Harb in 4
Monsoon : Mkt in 2
Arashi : ToE in 19 via Palace
WW : Lib in 3
Tempest : Newton in 4 (was 5 last turn - error in log)
Hurricane : Copernicus in 3
OG : Mkt in 24 (showing Hanging Gdns)
EotS : Hoover Dam (via Colosseum)
BB : Bank in 3
Tornado : CH in 3
Typhoon : Lib in 7
Sufa : Lib in 5
Cyclone & Sandstorm : Worker-pumps


City Sizes

Eli : 6
Inchon : 6
WoC : 6
Inchoff : 6
Diss : 11
Santa Ana : 6
Blizzard : 11
Monsoon : 11
Arashi : 12
WW : 6
Tempest : 11
Hurricane :12
OG : 11
EotS : 12
BB : 12
Tornado : 12
Typhoon : 11
Sufa : 11
Cyclone & Sandstorm : 4-5


Diplo

Sent Physics unaccepted to ND and Vox.



Other

ToG and Industrial Era next turn. 60% and +46gpt. 301g in bank.


Next Turn

Decide on hill allocation for Eli-3 btw Eli & Inchon
Shortrush granary in Sufa for turn off library

	22-02-2004 20:49									#11
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http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...97_Voxboat1.jpg

The following USED to display a picture....

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=18997_Voxboat1.jpg

	22-02-2004 20:51									#12
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Turn being held ....

	23-02-2004 01:11									#13
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got a response from Vox, they are discussing it in their forum.

I'm almost wondering if they don't get back to us soon, if we don't just send it to them accepted. They can't really do anything with it, I suppose gift it to nd, but we could put an nda on it. Its not like it would hurt us if they accepted it from us and we got nothing in return, really.

	23-02-2004 01:39									#14
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7 tech turns ahead of lego...

I hope its enough.

It won't be if vox gets medicine/steam and gow cant get us medicine promptly.

crap.

	23-02-2004 02:10									#15
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Physics was sent unaccepted in the save - that'll do - we have time to settle details. I'll send a note to GoW saying we need to discuss tech schedules.

I'll send the save now.

	23-02-2004 02:14									#16
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good enough

I think that now that lego has sealed itself off, gownd has a greater impetus to work with us to get ahead tech wise. hopefully. The worst would be if they get itchy and turn their attentions towards each other before the coming of marines.

	23-02-2004 06:57									#17
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A couple of broad question:

* Why would Lego beating us to TOE be game over?

* Have we (and NDGoW) considered focusing on a Marine attack on Lego?

	23-02-2004 07:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus A couple of broad question: * Why would Lego beating us to TOE be game over? * Have we (and NDGoW) considered focusing on a Marine attack on Lego?

1. I think its the fact that we don't get the 2 tech bump. And because lego would also then probably get both hoover and infantry before we could get marines. And it would be horribly disappointing to miss out on it.

2. Not yet, we should try to set up a chat sometime soon. I think everything we do should be focused on that goal (and self-defense) wonders built for science, prductivity. Churn out a navy and marines. Oh there will come a day of reckoning for lego.

	23-02-2004 08:24									#19
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Good that we have some ships out looking, but that triangle in the South between Lego and us... there could well be a couple of islands there. Maybe SP and maybe coal. Often tundra isles that will have at least one oil. It would be good to find them first.

	23-02-2004 08:26									#20
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You know, I was screwing around with playing AU 501 yesterday and today. I thought my late-game was sorta boneheaded, and I was particularly intrigued by some of the earlier warmonger wins.

I prolly experimented with 3-4 different strats... I've gotta say, the "Power of Seafaring" is something that most of us don't really have all that much experience with. 40 Dromons? Jesus wept.

Imagine a truly determined and coordinated attack by the bunch of us:
* Naval bombard for both resource denial and unit damage.
* Marines for direct attacks... perhaps on weakly defended high ground rather than cities directly, backed up by Infantry defense.
* Conqs for pillaging.

I wouldn't mind GS being the naval power, and then perhaps air... rather like the British Empire and then American production, I think. In fact, the more I think about it... isn't our best chance to win maintaining our homeland production whilst, in turn, damaging/denying same to our opponents?

Dear g*d, I think I am proposing a re-play of WW 1 and 2.

	23-02-2004 08:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I prolly experimented with 3-4 different strats... I've gotta say, the "Power of Seafaring" is something that most of us don't really have all that much experience with. 40 Dromons? Jesus wept.

[drool]

I've won games on the strength of men o war bombardment nearly alone! granted against the ai, but still.... bombard infantry, land cavs adjacent, take. fun 50 mow's + 30 captured. scary ****.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Imagine a truly determined and coordinated attack by the bunch of us: * Naval bombard for both resource denial and unit damage. * Marines for direct attacks... perhaps on weakly defended high ground rather than cities directly, backed up by Infantry defense. * Conqs for pillaging.

Its how its going to have to be. sounds like fun.

	23-02-2004 11:52									#22
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Message from MZ in log .

ND voted against military action against Lego. MZ also reckons that no way will Vox not give the freebie to their main benefactor.

The late industrial combined assault on Lego is looking like the only way they can be stopped now. If they beat us to ToE it will be a psychologocal blow as well as a material one.

GoW finish Mil Trad next turn. We finish ToG next turn. We need GoW to get Medicine when we have Electricity, so we're going to have to let GoW have ToG up-front so they can do it in time.

	23-02-2004 12:18									#23
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Do what has to be done, CH. Take us home.

	23-02-2004 14:33									#24
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ND got back to me on Friday to say that our offer on Physics was too high. I would have posted here before, but Thursday night my house was broken into and my laptop was stolen, so this is the first time I've been able to check in since then.

Do we go back to 600 gold, or go with some other plan?

	23-02-2004 15:55									#25
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What about these two proposal to ND and GoW:

GoW:
ToG next turn in exchange for
- the medicine - steam swap in less than 11 turns from now (and I don't mind telling them we're going for ToE and we need them to block Lego, we're at a very tight schedule)
- coal for 20 turns in case we don't have it in our territory, and they have 2 sources or more. In which case we'll transfer steam up front (before Medicine). Deal can start at our request, and needs to be started within 21 turns after receiving steam or is the promise is declared void.

ND:
Physics and ToG next turn, for:
- 600 gold
- 2 lux for 20 turns
- Coal for 20 turns in case we have none, and they have 2 sources or more.

I think they might go for that, it's not a bad deal for them.

Further: we might want to tell GoW and ND that our analysis shows it is likely Lego is capable of a sea wall of their own...

DeepO

	23-02-2004 20:06									#26
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Hell, we might as well get Mil tradition out of any deal for ToG. It might come in handy. For that matter, it wouldn't be an awful idea to upgrade our current knight force to cavs if possible. We will need them eventually, and saltpeter might be readily available for now.

I've sent a note to Rhoth of vox to contact you CH while I'm away the next few days.

I don't have a problem laying out our tech strategy with GoW. They know that we don't pose a direct threat to them anymore, the green menace is what they have to prepare for. They can win without attacking us, they can't without attacking lego.


I suppose ND is in full out rex mode to fill out Bob (what exactly did they get out of that deal???)


I remember predictions that this game wouldn't reach industrial! Hahaha. Though in fairness, we are much too kind to our opponents, allowing them to survive, compared to other games.

	23-02-2004 21:24									#27
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Mil Trad: if we don't go to Lego, cavs aren't worth anything at all. They can form part of a clean up duty when mixed into a inf/tank/marine force (as they have 3 movement), but it's not useful to build them, or pay good money on upgrades for them. I suspect that once we're thinking on invading, we won't bother taking cavs with us in our second, or even third wave, and only get used when avoiding flips and sushing rebellion. In that sense, Mil Trad is worth nothing at all to us, we don't even have SP to upgrade our (completely obsolete) knights.

So, GoW can do what they want with Mil Trad, if they want to give it to us: fine. But we shouldn't pay not even the slightest amount of gold for it...

DeepO

	23-02-2004 21:32									#28
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Cavs will be pretty useful for defense, otherwise it will be knights/guerrillas/artillery in case of a landing on stormia post-marines.

Have you checked out what hot_enamel did with a set of cavs and marines against tiberius in the marines thread in strat forum? quite devastating. It really depends on our goals. If our goal is to just suck up units into the west side, then marines/infantry are fine. If we want to penetrate and do damage, then we need some fastmovers.

	23-02-2004 21:41									#29
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I've read the post by H_E, yes. I'm not doubting that cavs can't be useful, but all depends on circumstances. For us, we will be as fast to tanks as we can get to marines, in which case I prefer these if we're facing infs. H_E had a bunch of cavs from previous buildup which he could use. We don't... we have 23 knigths or something like that, which we could upgrade, but that upgrade is not worth the cost of us acquiring Mil Trad and SP.

If we would go to Lego, things are different. But it doesn't look like we're going to invade before tanks are available. So let's not waste money on Mil Trad... if I had to chose between my proposal (an assurance for coal and a decent shot at ToE) and Mil Trad, the choice would be easily made.

DeepO

	23-02-2004 21:42									#30
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But since GoW and ND seem to have no intention of invading Lego at the moment, and we have no SP, MT is completely useless to us. If we do need cavalry in the future, it is more efficient to build knights while we can, and upgrade when about to go to war - and we don't need MT until then, when it will be considered almost worthless by everyone else. For defense, we strictly need anything more advanced than workers until marines are around. Once marines are here, our defences concentrate in ports. Fast movers will hopefully be redundant on defence due to RRs and artillery - we won't need cavalry to launch a counter-offensive (guerillas are cheaper for the same attack, aren't they?), unless we lose a city - but if that happens, our core is pretty much gutted and all our best towns are history anyway, so it's a lost cause.

I'm with DeepO - we should pay no more for MT than it's worth, and it is currently worthless to us, and remains pretty much so even if we do get a source of SP.