23-02-2004 05:05									#1
	Civ3 vs other strategy games Enter the AD-FREE zone

I often see people refer to other games in these forums, most notably SMAC, MOO3 and CTP2. My experience with strategy games is rather narrow, having been bitten by the Civ3 bug as pretty much my first computer game.....so the only other strat game I've ever played much is Empire Earth, which is basically about building units and killing the AI's.

I'd be very interested to see some of you more experienced gamers to provide some comparative comments on the differences and similarities between Civ3 and some of the other popular strategy games, as I'd like to try some others but don't have enough "non-Civ" time to try very many (yes, sad isn't it!).

So, which games are better than Civ3 and why?

	23-02-2004 06:56									#2
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Skip CTP or CTP2, not that good. Smac is excellent. It wil be quite familar to you after Civ.

TBS games that I favor are Moo/Moo2, Heroes II/III, Warlords II/III. Stars and Age Of Wonders. Maybe the best of the later ones is Disciples II.

These are IMO, not gospel.

	23-02-2004 08:47									#3
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SMAC is arguably the best game in Civ genre. Gameplay is much richer than in Civ III but AI is worse (largely because of the added complexity).

Heroes of Might and Magic series is outstanding. HOMM III is probably the best, but previous entries are also very enjoyable. The latest installment is HOMM IV which is not as good as earlier versions (imo).

Europa Universalis II is the best RTS game (again, imo). Although it is RTS, it has a feel of TBS games - it is definitely not a clickfest. The added bonus is that one can actually learn quite a bit of history from this game and developer's support (Paradox) is excellent. There are several other Paradox games based on the same engine for different time periods (Hearts of Iron, Victoria) but EU2 is the best of them.

These are my personal top 3

	23-02-2004 13:54									#4
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I think civ3 is the best TBS with SMAC, the Heroes II and III as close runner ups...

EU2 is great as well

but I think the best RTS is Warcraft 3

	23-02-2004 16:27									#5
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I've never played SMAC. I bought it recently as part of EA's laptop series of discount bundles, but have not touched it yet.

If the AI is worse due to increased complexity, then quite frankly, no thanks.

The lifeblood of TBS games is the AI, since these are long, plodding (but exiting) single player games. The AI matters, even if its a multiplayer game, you probably still need AI as filler.

After experiencing the Civ3 AI, which is flawed, but very interesting on many levels, I can't go back to Civ2.

Anyways, my rant has gone OT :P sorry.

	23-02-2004 16:58									#6
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If nothing else SMAC is worth playing through a couple of times at the lowest diff just to see all the GREAT movies for the Wonders (called Secret Projects in SMAC). The one for the Cloning Secret Project still makes me chuckle just thinking about it.

If you are easily scared then don't watch the ones from the psi secret projects at night when you are home alone.

We must dissent!

	23-02-2004 21:19									#7
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CTP2 is a fun game if you use one of the mods from this site.

	23-02-2004 22:14									#8
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We must dissent! I love that Self-Aware Colony special project movie, I always get that SP just to see the movie.

SMAC and SMAX would be a nice change of pace for you, Thriller.

If you like role-playing, play Civ 3 and aim for building the spaceship and send it off for inter-planetary colonization. (I haven't touched Civ 3 yet but did play Civ 2 before so I assume Civ 3 have that spaceship thing).

Then play SMAC/X, and that's where your nation's spaceship went.

Graphics are not that good as Civ 3 but it's still a joy to play. It'll always have a home on my hard drive. At least until they come out with SMAC II which is highly doubtful.

	23-02-2004 23:47									#9
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Test Of Time let you see where your space ship went a long time ago.

	24-02-2004 01:48									#10
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Europa Universalis 2 is one of the best strategy games i've ever played.
If you love a good political/diplomatic/economic simulation system, you gonna love this game.
This game take a little time to learn and understand all the option of the game, but once you know how the game work, you'll have fun.
Look this review:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy...is2/review.html

Last edited by cronos_qc on 24-02-2004 at 03:48

	24-02-2004 02:58									#11
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Must agree, EU2 is one the best games I played recteintly, but my favortie are: 1- Civ3, 2- EU2, 3- Railroad Tycoon 2 (hard, but fun)

	24-02-2004 05:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc Europa Universalis 2 is one of the best strategy games i've ever played. If you love a good political/diplomatic/economic simulation system, you gonna love this game. This game take a little time to learn and understand all the option of the game, but once you know how the game work, you'll have fun.

I've taken three (unsuccessful) runs at the tutorial to date. I've also found I need a book to read in between turns.

Like I've said, I'm sure it's a great game. I've never been able to figure it out, tho'.

[ok]

	25-02-2004 10:38									#13
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Hey, thanks for the great responses chaps. I'd like to look at one or two of your recommendations for variety's sake, if nothing else......though realistically, it may not be until I get tired of playing Civ3 (or 4 or 5....).

Cheers!

	25-02-2004 19:52									#14
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Though not for PC, some decent strategy games on consoles are by chinese developer Koei. The "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" series. It is dual-level: strategic and tactical. I've mostly played #3 in the series (which was for SNES), but the AI in it was rather decent. It can also be configured for multiple players, which is quite fun. It takes a LONG time to finish one game, though.

I have mixed feelings about bi-leveled games like that. I often have fun with them, but I'd really hate to see Civ go that way. The Lords of the Realm/Magic series was fun to me, with TBS strategy and real time tactical. Impressions city-building series (Caesar & Pharaoh) is somewhat like that too. I think I heard that CTP had this? A fun unheard of classic: Conquest of the New World.

I, however, did not like the Total War games (Shogun & Midieval). That's probably because I really hated their tactical level's operation.

	26-02-2004 00:49									#15
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The AI is weaker with SMAC, but the tradeoff is a much richer game. Just think about this, I remember reading about a player who devised a strategy to win as the greens by deliberately polluting then capturing the spawned aliens. The same player (or possibly another) also deliberately polluted in order to melt the ice caps and drown his opponents. Dont forget the imaginative unit permutations that could be built.

	26-02-2004 12:42									#16
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I played SMAC, and kinda missed what youre talking about(?!). It was boring. I guess I'll have to try again....

	26-02-2004 13:18									#17
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Ok then, another question.....How do you guys compare TBS games with RTS games? In general can you say that one is more fun and challenging than the other, or that one provides deeper strategy but the other is more exciting?

Or are they so different in concept that you can't compare?

	26-02-2004 13:45									#18
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quote: I've taken three (unsuccessful) runs at the tutorial to date. I've also found I need a book to read in between turns.

If you're playing EU2 you can crank up the speed when nothing much is happening. Also, if you're playing small backwater nations you'll be bored. Though it can work if you're able to expand on your weaker neighbours.
As Sweden (on grand campaign) I own all of northern europe far into russia, have outposts in france, holland, portugal and spain. and i own 90% of non-indian south america + considerable colonies in north america, among others, Manhattan I havent bothered playing cause the world is essentially mine. The way it should be, under Swedish rule

Enough ranting, a few classics, Master of Magic! similar to MOO, but has a very civ like city build and development. Also as mentioned, HOMM, and SMAC are must plays. good ole warlords is great fun too. ah the nostalgia washes over me. oh for the good ole days.
Btw check out Starcontrol2, not really strategy, but IMO one of the best games ever. rpg, space exploration, battle. too bad it doesnt have a colonization element.

DOH! You all forgot col! sid meiers colonization is also a classic you should check out.
how i long for old times...

	26-02-2004 13:56									#19
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TBS über alles. no thats not quite right. the concepts are very different. TBS games are usually slower, more intricate, require more thought and planning. far too many RTS become as said here "clickfest[s]". gather resources ASAP, build units ASAP, attack! whoever can do this the fastest will most often win. strategy is not really as big an element as dexterity... also its not really strategy as much as it is tactical.

most TBS require a little deeper thought and planning. and they generally take much longer. i enjoy TBS more simply because RTS are too often repetitive and have too little variation. but if i'm looking for a fast strategy game a round of warcraft or war of the ring can be quite fun. once, maybe twice. then i'm bored.

	26-02-2004 14:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst Btw check out Starcontrol2, not really strategy, but IMO one of the best games ever. rpg, space exploration, battle. too bad it doesnt have a colonization element.

How do you do the *pretty colors*

*Dance* is always *special* when against *spicy ones*

Do you want to do the *go go*

We must *camp* with *quickbabies*

Orz rock the free galaxy!

	26-02-2004 14:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst TBS über alles. no thats not quite right. the concepts are very different. TBS games are usually slower, more intricate, require more thought and planning. far too many RTS become as said here "clickfest[s]". gather resources ASAP, build units ASAP, attack! whoever can do this the fastest will most often win. strategy is not really as big an element as dexterity... also its not really strategy as much as it is tactical.

I sense Zero coming, and he will be angry. Overall you're of course right.

	26-02-2004 19:41									#22
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I've tried RTS, and they hold absolutely no interest for me.

The best strategy / tactical game I've played, aside from civ3? Combat Mission. Turn based - with modifications. You give your orders for each turn, and then one minute's worth of action happens in real time (which you get to watch as often as you want), then back to the next orders phase....

Of course, if you don't like WW2 games on a platoon to batallion level, it's not for you (in game, that means 10 or so units, up to a few hundred for the larger engagements). And it's more tactical than strategic.

	26-02-2004 20:40									#23
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Well, EU2 is technically RTS but it is very different from most RTS games.

It is sort of "event-based" - ie you can set the game to automatically pause whenever anything of importance happens and you can give orders when the game is paused. Very nice system, actually.

	26-02-2004 21:34									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Any thoughts about Rise of Nations?

Dunegon Seige?

Diablo I and II?

	26-02-2004 21:44									#25
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I've only played it a little, but RoN seems pretty good. It plays like a RTS but with more depth than most others. My only ***** is that it is still to much of a clickfest for my mouse.

	26-02-2004 22:29									#26
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Diablo was a great game at the time. Diablo II is still a great game. I play it a bit every now and then. Just run normal and nightmare modes, never tried hell mode.

It is really just a straight bash em up, but I get hooked on the level up and get more items aspect.

	26-02-2004 22:33									#27
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RTS and TBS are not really equivalents. I have not played much RTS lately, but I am a big fan of the genre. It is more exciting, but less thoughtful.

Some of the later RTS games go to be too much for me to manage. I loved Age of Empires, but found AoK to be too many units to deal with and bailed out.

MP games with an RTS are just so intense, it can be draining.

	27-02-2004 12:55									#28
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst TBS games are usually slower, more intricate, require more thought and planning. far too many RTS become as said here "clickfest[s]".

Yeh, that's kinda what I thought. But so many times I've been into gaming shops and they look at you like you're a lunatic when you ask about Civ3. The response is usually along the lines of "It's a TBS, which means it's not even worth thinking about". Seems like most gamers go for the first-person shoot-em-up type stuff like Doom and Wolfenstein!

By the way, has anyone tried Empire Earth?

	27-02-2004 13:36									#29
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What does Diablo have to do with strategy games- tbs or rts?

(Not that is isnt a great game!)

	27-02-2004 22:47									#30
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Nothing Daz, same Dungeon Siege.