23-02-2004 10:07									#1
	GWT Victory Contingency Prepoll Thread: Build or War? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It is understood that at this point we do not know whether GWT will win and, if so, how decisive their victory may be.

However, there has been a great deal of discussion regarding the issue of what we should do if they do win.

I think the options which have come out of that discussion are:

1. WAR Option: Prepare to invade GWT for the purpose of razing a number of their key core cities during the period of opportunity between Military Tradition and Steam Power.

2. FORTRESS Option: Build either an army or fleet (see poll here) and use it to create "Fortress Apolytonia" to defend us from invasion by GWT. We begin building military units immediately, either army or navy (as based on said on poll and formats laid out in that thread).

3. BUILD Option. Or, as Dominae calls it on page 4 (or at least page 4 for me) in this thread, the "Super-Build" option. We use the opportunity of GWT being distracted by the CGN war to work as hard as we can on infrastructure (aqueducts, harbors, marketplaces, etc.), build up our cities, get lots of workers doing tile improvements, etc. We do this for a good 25 turns while pushing ahead in tech. We then are ahead in economy and able to build the army and/or navy we need. We also work toward starting our Golden Age o fuel our building program. We use our eventual economic superiority (if this can be atttained) to build our military and defend ourselves from attack.

4. OTHER option. Please post.

----------------------

The purpose of this thread is to develop the options for a poll on the subject of which option should be taken. Once I'm reasonably sure that we have the options ironed out, we will have a poll on them. You're all free to suggest options, alterations to present options, whatever.

Save the arguments about the superiority or inferiority if said options for other threads however (such as those linked above and the poll thread, once formed).

Thank You.

	23-02-2004 10:28									#2
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Depends on how fast GWT defeats CGN...

If they take long enough (20-25 turns) I believe we could entertain a possible invasion of GWT. However, we cannot afford to go all war now. But later (sorry Dom, that's how things work sometimes). This is also the case if CGN were to destroy GWT later on with Sipahis.

If GWT destroys CGN before then (or vice versa in some strange twist of fate), then we should work towards a mix of builder and fortress. We gradually build up our defenses, only dedicated a real effort once we have things up and running for real (all cities, Aquas, big pop in our cities).

Quite frankly, we can't afford to go all builder forever or even 100% builder for that matter. Armies take time above all else to build. Our economy was crappy compared to GWT and CGN, and yet we had the mightiest army on the planet for quite a while. How'd we do it? Time. Time is necessary to build big economy. Time is necessary to build big army. Time is necessary to build big navy. And we have time until GWT gets Navigation.

	23-02-2004 10:28									#3
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All my thoughts on this (and there's a bunch of them) already appear in the thread Arnelos linked to (the "page 4" one).

In short, I favor:

1. Super-builder to full-military.
2. Drastic action now, whatever we decide.


Dominae

	23-02-2004 10:55									#4
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I say we make the decision on the date of the Palace jump.

Why?

1) We will know if GWT made a smashing victory (and seriously, if GWT made a smashing victory, it would make little marginal impact if we went total war right now)

2) We can put our economy into full gear into either of the two, something we would be unwise to do at this very instant.

	23-02-2004 12:13									#5
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Obviously, only MZ read the starting post of the thread about the PURPOSE of this thread...

People, this thread is for organizing a poll. Make your arguments in the discussion threads that already exist on the same topics. If you want to propose an option for the poll, that's what this thread is for.

Thank You.

	23-02-2004 13:04									#6
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Option #?: REX as planned by ET for the next 13 turns(IIRC). Then wait to see what is happening in the GWT/CGN war and then reacess the situation at that time/as that time nears.

In otherwords, continue as planned for now.

	23-02-2004 13:56									#7
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Sorry Arne, but...

Build, build, build. If we go military now we forfeit the game.

Have a look. GWT has aquaducts up around their FP. The cores simply cannot be compared. We spent our time on military to win us the land and the space to be able to build.

Build now, or lose. Those are the options.

	23-02-2004 21:52									#8
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Sorry Arne?

DOES ANYONE EVER READ THE FIRST POST ABOUT WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT???

This thread exists to organize options for a poll. All I've done is post the options I've already heard expressed. I'm asking you turkies to propose additional options if you have them. I'm not necessarily in favor or against any of the options above. Please offer POLL OPTIONS.

Can I make that any more clear?

	23-02-2004 22:25									#9
	Tired of ads?

Actually I think prepoll threads like this are great places to debate the issues: when it comes time to actually vote, people are likely to have a more informed and reasoned opinion. I bet a majority of us vote in a poll first, then read the thread...


Dominae

	23-02-2004 23:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Actually I think prepoll threads like this are great places to debate the issues: when it comes time to actually vote, people are likely to have a more informed and reasoned opinion. I bet a majority of us vote in a poll first, then read the thread... Dominae

My reaction was the the "Sorry Arne" comment, as though I'd stated an opinion against what was being proposed (in fact, in another thread, my opinion wasn't terribly far from the one NYE gave...).

This lead me to conclude that my post was not read, since I did not advocate for any of the positions in this thread.

	24-02-2004 00:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos DOES ANYONE EVER READ THE FIRST POST ABOUT WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT???

Huh, what would I want to do that for?

	24-02-2004 00:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos DOES ANYONE EVER READ THE FIRST POST ABOUT WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT???

I'm sure he read it. I'm also sure he read in the myriad of other threads you've stated you opinon and made it clear what you support. Just because he voices an opinon in one thread instead of another shouldn't get you all riled up. If someone wants to make comments about a situation, you are not God and can't prevent that. Or is this another form of censorship or just taking away some the Senates voice?

	24-02-2004 01:01									#13
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We are The Hungry Men™, don't you ever forget that.

	24-02-2004 01:26									#14
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BF, but my opinion and his agree! That's what's so mystifying!

	24-02-2004 01:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Or is this another form of censorship or just taking away some the Senates voice?

No, just you.

	24-02-2004 02:14									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trip No, just you.

You stiffle one, you stiffle too many.

	24-02-2004 03:21									#17
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quote: People, this thread is for organizing a poll. Make your arguments in the discussion threads that already exist on the same topics. If you want to propose an option for the poll, that's what this thread is for.

Hence, sorry Arne, but I do believe that a prepoll discussion is for the better, and that that discussion should be held mostly in one thread. This one is labelled 'prepoll' so this is the one that should be read by all and in which arguments for and against should be made, IMO.

	24-02-2004 04:22									#18
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Duly noted.

Ok, we'll discuss it in this thread as well.

Still, I'd like to know if people would like to add additional options to the poll. ANY takers on that or shall we poll only the options I laid out in the first post?

	24-02-2004 06:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Still, I'd like to know if people would like to add additional options to the poll. ANY takers on that or shall we poll only the options I laid out in the first post?

Ok, time for me to get sarchastic with you...

Did you not see my post above in which I laid out an option for the poll? Get some new eyeware or something man!

quote: Option #?: REX as planned by ET for the next 13 turns(IIRC). Then wait to see what is happening in the GWT/CGN war and then reacess the situation at that time/as that time nears. In otherwords, continue as planned for now.