24-02-2004 04:49									#151
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Obviously you are arguing form the grave falacy of "natural rights"

I'm not sure you are being coherent here GePap. If you believe there are no natural rights, then you must assume that anyone has a right to anything- which in turn is a natural right. (EDIT: natural in that it exists in the state of nature)

Then, perhaps you are referencing to the 20th century philosophers who have denied any kind of natural rights? Then I'm sorry, I've not read them.

	24-02-2004 04:50									#152
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quote: I'm not sure you are being coherent here GePap. If you believe there are no natural rights, then you must assume that anyone has a right to anything- which in turn is a natural right.

Not necessarily. Absense of natural right doesn't mean everyone has a right to everything. It means no one has the right.

quote: Then, perhaps you are referencing to the 20th centuries philosophers who have denied any kind of natural rights? Then I'm sorry, I've not read them.

Slight nitpick, Nietszche (my favorite philosopher as well) was in the 19th Century .

	24-02-2004 05:08									#153
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Theft can only occur within a legal system that gives you the right to own something- a legal system created by the state- and thus the state taking it is almost be definition not theft, specially taxation. Anymore than you can call the state executing a criminal murder. Obviously you are arguing form the grave falacy of "natural rights"

It was legal in Germany to execute millions of Jews. Slavery was legal in many countries. Want a few more examples?

In many countries right now it is legal for the government to steal money/force labor involuntarily. I don't think anyone is disputing the legality of it.

Obviously anything the state defines as legal is legal within its borders as long as it has the power to enforce its laws.

I was speaking more about the immorality of the government stealing or forcing its citizens into labor against thier will.

	24-02-2004 05:18									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not necessarily. Absense of natural right doesn't mean everyone has a right to everything. It means no one has the right.

Really? I mean, can you really claim no one has the right to forage and hunt anywhere in a state of nature?

quote: Slight nitpick, Nietszche (my favorite philosopher as well) was in the 19th Century .

Yeah. I only have a limited knowledge of Nietzsche. Did he deny any kind of natural rights?

	24-02-2004 05:20									#155
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quote: I mean, can you really claim no one has the right to forage and hunt anywhere in a state of nature?

First you have to assert that a state of nature ever exists.

quote: Yeah. I only have a limited knowledge of Nietzsche. Did he deny any kind of natural rights?

Yes. Basically asserted that they were put in place by people in power.

	24-02-2004 05:20									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude It was legal in Germany to execute millions of Jews. Slavery was legal in many countries. Want a few more examples? In many countries right now it is legal for the government to steal money/force labor involuntarily. I don't think anyone is disputing the legality of it. Obviously anything the state defines as legal is legal within its borders as long as it has the power to enforce its laws. I was speaking more about the immorality of the government stealing or forcing its citizens into labor against thier will.

The point DD is that property necessarily requires a State to enforce it, and therefore that the State decides how it will be handled.

No one believes anymore that property is a natural right.

	24-02-2004 05:21									#157
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quote: No one believes anymore that property is a natural right.

Those that believe in natural rights do. Or a lot of them do.

	24-02-2004 05:27									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui First you have to assert that a state of nature ever exists.

Actually, we could take Hobbes' definition, in which the state of nature is merely the lack of a coercive State. In such a case, anyone can obviously cut any tree he likes, sleep in any field, fish in any river.

We could also take the anthropological route, back to hunter-foragers era. Since there was no food preservation at the time, obviously those who 'owned' a bush where those who were taking the fruits in it, at the time of the action only; those who owned meat were those actually running after the deers. Before and after, the deer belongs to anyone.

quote: Yes. Basically asserted that they were put in place by people in power.

Good ol' Nietzsche. Will always surprise me.
[note: not that I think he's wrong, just that he's got such a huge tendency to blame everything on the elites... it's kind of funny]

	24-02-2004 05:29									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The point DD is that property necessarily requires a State to enforce it, and therefore that the State decides how it will be handled. No one believes anymore that property is a natural right.

Speak for yourself.

	24-02-2004 05:29									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Those that believe in natural rights do. Or a lot of them do.

Well, they would be idiots, because in a state of nature there is obviously no way to accumulate wealth. Everything that you own is either being consumed (a berry) or absolutely necessary to your survival (a fur coat, a sharp rock).

	24-02-2004 05:29									#161
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quote: in which the state of nature is merely the lack of a coercive State. In such a case, anyone can obviously cut any tree he likes, sleep in any field, fish in any river.

But no one has a RIGHT to any of that. The next day, the stronger guy can say, my tree, my field, my river and if you trespass, I'll beat you.

quote: just that he's got such a huge tendency to blame everything on the elites

Well it isn't blame. It's fact. Morals are those put in place by the powerful and followed by the sheep of society.

	24-02-2004 05:34									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But no one has a RIGHT to any of that. The next day, the stronger guy can say, my tree, my field, my river and if you trespass, I'll beat you.

Bah, stop nitpicking. You have read Hobbes and you understand what I mean. If everyone has a right to everything, then it's a matter of who is more powerful.

I mean the "right to everything"="the right to nothing", it's pure semantic.

quote: Well it isn't blame. It's fact. Morals are those put in place by the powerful and followed by the sheep of society.

I assumed it was a blame, in that the sheeps are stupid enough to follow. Am I wrong?

	24-02-2004 05:36									#163
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quote: I mean the "right to everything"="the right to nothing", it's pure semantic.

No, it isn't. That's my point. The right to nothing is distinct from the right to everything. If you have a 'right' to everything than those who are more powerful cannot transgress. If you have a right to nothing then the powerful can take over. Remember, a 'right' is something you can claim against someone else.

quote: I assumed it was a blame, in that the sheeps are stupid enough to follow. Am I wrong?

No, because he doesn't blame the elites for doing what they do. He blames the sheep for following .

	24-02-2004 05:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, they would be idiots, because in a state of nature there is obviously no way to accumulate wealth. Everything that you own is either being consumed (a berry) or absolutely necessary to your survival (a fur coat, a sharp rock).

So you recognize owning a sharp rock, a berry or a fur coat as a natural right. Can I plant the seed from the berry i own and own the berry tree. Can I domesticate an animal and make a fur coat out of it later. Can I make 4 sharp rocks and trade them for berries?

It seems very natural for humans, even in a state of nature, to own property and own the fruits of thier labor.

	24-02-2004 05:50									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, it isn't. That's my point. The right to nothing is distinct from the right to everything. If you have a 'right' to everything than those who are more powerful cannot transgress. If you have a right to nothing then the powerful can take over. Remember, a 'right' is something you can claim against someone else.

That's because you're a lawyer. The real word would probably be 'arightful'. The neolithic man won't refrain himself from hunting because he suddenly feels like doesn't have any rights. He's just gonna take what's in his path. If you claim he has a 'right to nothing', then he must have been wrong in doing what he did, while in fact he was neither right or wrong.

	24-02-2004 05:53									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude So you recognize owning a sharp rock, a berry or a fur coat as a natural right. Can I plant the seed from the berry i own and own the berry tree. Can I domesticate an animal and make a fur coat out of it later. Can I make 4 sharp rocks and trade them for berries? It seems very natural for humans, even in a state of nature, to own property and own the fruits of thier labor.

There is a word to distinguish what I described from 'property', and it's 'possession'.

To most primitive tribes, ownership is not natural at all: the harvest is shared by the whole tribe. What seemed natural to men until 3,000 BC was that nature belonged to everyone, and that it was in everyone's interest that property be collective.

	24-02-2004 05:55									#167
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quote: That's because you're a lawyer. The real word would probably be 'arightful'. The neolithic man won't refrain himself from hunting because he suddenly feels like doesn't have any rights. He's just gonna take what's in his path. If you claim he has a 'right to nothing', then he must have been wrong in doing what he did, while in fact he was neither right or wrong.

If a person has a right to nothing then he can't be wrong in taking what he has because he isn't stealing from anyone. He simply takes. Rights implies that someone else can't impinge... and it isn't 'law'. When people say "I have rights!" they mean that you can't do that because you are violating their rights. If no one has rights then you can do whatever you want because no is claiming any rights against you.

Just because you don't have a 'right' to do something doesn't mean you don't do so. I don't have a right to drink coke, but I can drink it just the same.

	24-02-2004 06:02									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris There is a word to distinguish what I described from 'property', and it's 'possession'. To most primitive tribes, ownership is not natural at all: the harvest is shared by the whole tribe. What seemed natural to men until 3,000 BC was that nature belonged to everyone, and that it was in everyone's interest that property be collective.

That was one of the reason why many indian tribes got so easily cheated by the american emissaries.

It was absolutely alien to them to sign a treaty about the possession of a piece of Land.
For them Land was just there, you can walk over it, some pieces of Land are good hunting grounds or places to rest, but noone owns it

	24-02-2004 06:05									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If a person has a right to nothing then he can't be wrong in taking what he has because he isn't stealing from anyone. He simply takes. Rights implies that someone else can't impinge... and it isn't 'law'. When people say "I have rights!" they mean that you can't do that because you are violating their rights. If no one has rights then you can do whatever you want because no is claiming any rights against you. Just because you don't have a 'right' to do something doesn't mean you don't do so. I don't have a right to drink coke, but I can drink it just the same.

Then, everyone has a right to anything- in which case, two persons bumping on the same fish will simply start a fight.
It's an absurd proposition: a right to everything, is a right to nothing, is a non-right, is a state of nature.

You say that a right implies someone can't impinge- but the proposition a "right to everything" obviously means that everyone CAN impinge and that therefore there is no right.

I think Hobbes needed to put this sentence this way to illustrate his point: that humans in a State are not recognizing someone's right, but rather abandoning their own. This a lot of implications down the road.

Just understand it this way: to say that a right to everything is a right to nothing is just an analytical truth; the second is the obvious and only possibel consequence to the first.

	24-02-2004 06:22									#170
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quote: Then, everyone has a right to anything- in which case, two persons bumping on the same fish will simply start a fight.

No, they don't have a RIGHT because a right must be enforced and cannot be violated.

quote: You say that a right implies someone can't impinge- but the proposition a "right to everything" obviously means that everyone CAN impinge and that therefore there is no right.

Then it isn't really a 'right' to everything is it? If you can impinge on it, you don't have any rights.

quote: that humans in a State are not recognizing someone's right, but rather abandoning their own.

That is only if you believe people have inherant rights.

quote: Just understand it this way: to say that a right to everything is a right to nothing is just an analytical truth; the second is the obvious and only possibel consequence to the first.

No, I don't understand it that way. Right to everything is only something a King has.

	24-02-2004 06:25									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia can discrimination be good?

What do you think discrimination is?? It's making a choice. Yes, making choices can be good.

	24-02-2004 06:30									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris There is a word to distinguish what I described from 'property', and it's 'possession'. To most primitive tribes, ownership is not natural at all: the harvest is shared by the whole tribe. What seemed natural to men until 3,000 BC was that nature belonged to everyone, and that it was in everyone's interest that property be collective.

A possession in your example is a very primitive property right. As culture's become more and more advanced and complicated the expression of the basic property right becomes more and more advanced and complicated. as I tried to point out by taking your example to the next logical step.

I certainly would expect cultural norms of neolithic times to be different from our own. And I would expect them to view as property those things that were tangible and divisible in thier mindset.

In addition, noone ever said that people couldn't give up a property right or that everything had to be owned. In 3000 bc it probably made about as much sense to say you owned a plot of land as it does nowadays to say you own specific air molecules. Someday that may change.

By the same token, I would imagine that Neolithic man still felt he owned certain things. Perhaps his spot in the cave, his clothes, his woman, his lucky rock etc etc etc. They also shared things land, the food from the hunt or scrounging etc etc.

That is no different then now. It is just different things that are deemed to be ownable or private/personal property.

	24-02-2004 07:23									#173
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quote: What do you think discrimination is?? It's making a choice. Yes, making choices can be good.

thats the uk/aussie/nz traditional meaning. in the us, its got a negative connotation.

	24-02-2004 07:38									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude It was legal in Germany to execute millions of Jews. Slavery was legal in many countries. Want a few more examples?

Was it? Maybe I missed when the Germans passed that law..wait, they didn't. When states decide to go whole hog, the dpon;t bother with making laws like "we can now commit genocide". The of course, there is the fact that Germany was a signatory to various international conventions, further complicating this all too common "counterarguement"

quote: I was speaking more about the immorality of the government stealing or forcing its citizens into labor against thier will.

No one forces you to work-but you take your consequences of not doing it. Man had to work well before government- its a siomple part of living, and if anything, man in government, specially the big modern ones works less than he ever had to before and has higher standards of living than ever.

So that "theft" is what built the modern world, including this internet you now post on.

	24-02-2004 07:44									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Then, everyone has a right to anything- in which case, two persons bumping on the same fish will simply start a fight. It's an absurd proposition: a right to everything, is a right to nothing, is a non-right, is a state of nature.

Again, as Imran stated: the very word "right" implies a framework of relations. In the case you descrivbe, to men might very well start to fight for the fish, just like two creatures would fight for the fish-why, becuase both want it and the one who keeps it will be the stronger or smarter- it won;t be a matter of rights, only of superiority.

quote: You say that a right implies someone can't impinge- but the proposition a "right to everything" obviously means that everyone CAN impinge and that therefore there is no right.

You were the one to say "right to everything", not imran. And there is no such thing as right to everything.

quote: Just understand it this way: to say that a right to everything is a right to nothing is just an analytical truth; the second is the obvious and only possibel consequence to the first.

You are confusing Liberty to License, just as Deity Dude was confusing Possesion to property.

Liberty and Property imply relationships and limits in those relationships- license (as in licentious) and possesion do not- a dog can posses- the can not own. A cat my be free or licentious, but does not have liberty.

	24-02-2004 07:47									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude I was speaking more about the immorality of the government stealing or forcing its citizens into labor against thier will.

It would only be stealing if you *had* to live in that country.

The US and most other westernized countries don't and wouldn't force you to stay there to participate in the currency/taxation system.

You're entirely free to pick another system, someone else... or maybe try to change the pluralities mind about it by running for high political office.

	24-02-2004 08:08									#177
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they should carve out a libertarian country somewhere and let us live there in peace.

	24-02-2004 08:41									#178
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Do people really have such a hard time understanding the concept that, a person can find a problem with a country and still not want to leave it. Especially when the exact same problem exists in most countries.

If I live in a high crime area because I like other things about the area, and get my car stolen, isn't it still a theft even if I had the chance to leave but I didn't?

This argument that taking people's goods against thier will isn't theft because they could theoretically uproot thier entire existance and leave the country makes no sense to me.

And BTW Gepap, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" was law and policy, but even if you want to argue semantics with me about that particular example, I'm sure you would agree with me that many governments have passed many horrible and immoral laws that were "legal" simply because the people in charge passed them. Chattel slavery for example.

My point is that just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Likewise, just because I could theoretically leave a country that has an immoral law and choose not to doesn't make the law any more moral.

	24-02-2004 08:49									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude And BTW Gepap, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" was law and policy, but even if you want to argue semantics with me about that particular example, I'm sure you would agree with me that many governments have passed many horrible and immoral laws that were "legal" simply because the people in charge passed them. Chattel slavery for example.

"The Final Solution" was policy- not law. difference.

quote: My point is that just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Likewise, just because I could theoretically leave a country that has an immoral law and choose not to doesn't make the law any more moral.

Which is why we moved on the the discussion of naturla rights- you keep calling taxation theft- but that presuposes some sort of ownership to the money seperate from taxation- as opposed to possesion. A dog can posses, but if I take something from a dog, it is not theft, becuase the dog has no legal ownership rights.

Property rights spring from the same relationships that make taxation possible.

	24-02-2004 09:35									#180
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Which is why we moved on the the discussion of naturla rights- you keep calling taxation theft- but that presuposes some sort of ownership to the money seperate from taxation- as opposed to possesion. A dog can posses, but if I take something from a dog, it is not theft, becuase the dog has no legal ownership rights. Property rights spring from the same relationships that make taxation possible.

Well i think we hit a wall here. If you think people don't have natural rights because dogs can only possess and not own in a legal sense, I tend to disagree. Humans and dogs are different.