24-02-2004 03:50									#1
	Constitutional Amendment: Official Polls Remove this text

(This is a meta-poll )


Debate over official polls has been going on for a while now and a number of important reforms have been suggested by the members of this team. The purpose of this amendment is to change the current requirements of official polls (or Bills, as they are mentioned in the constitution). This amendment proposal allows for Bills to be started by Consuls as well as requiring a pre-poll discussion to take place. Considerations for re-polling are also included.

You may read the discussion thread here: Note: all the changes in this amendment proposal have been suggested and discussed in this thread
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=108393

You may read the Constitution here:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...279#post1768279


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Addition to section A.1 The Consuls

quote: The Consuls may propose a Bill following the guidelines set in Senatorial Procedure G.2

Change to section G.2 Senatorial Procedure
(changes in blue)

quote: The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow. a. A Bill must be proposed by a Citizen, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea, nay or abstain. b. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law. c. All Bills must be open for at least 48 hours. d. The Bill must have been preceded by a clearly labeled discussion thread. A link to this thread must be included in the first post. e. A Bill may be re-polled at anytime, however, its discussion thread must clearly explain the reasons why the Bill is subject to another poll. f. A Bill re-polled in less than two weeks is considered invalid if it does not meet at least two-thirds of the turnout of the original poll.

Note: the addition of an "abstain" option now serves the double purpose of measuring team participation as well as serving as an indicator for turnout which is necessary for part G.2.f.


-MZ

	24-02-2004 04:11									#2
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This is bogus for so many reasons. Don't ask me to explain why, becuase I won't.

	24-02-2004 04:23									#3
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree This is bogus for so many reasons. Don't ask me to explain why, becuase I won't.

So requiring pre-poll discussions is bad???

Discussion before voting is a standard requirement in any deliberative body anywhere in the world and with good reason. Allowing fast votes without appropriate discussion of such important issues ahead of time would simply allow for knee-jerk reactions of a simple majority to decide every issue rather than a more deliberative and reasoned series of choices by an informed voting population.

This proposal is entirely reasonable. It in no way restricts anyone from proposing a poll, it only requires them to have it discussed and allow for everyone to comment and have a chance to persuade one another before the actual VOTE is taken.

	24-02-2004 04:27									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos So requiring pre-poll discussions is bad???

I didn't say every part of this was bad, but many parts of it are.

	24-02-2004 04:30									#5
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Care to explain WHICH parts instead of just b*tching about it? Here's your chance to prove us wrong

	24-02-2004 04:32									#6
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While I would change the repoll requirements to prohibit repolls within 2 weeks, remove section (e), and require that all repolls, no matter when they occur, have at least 2/3 participation in the vote.

But my objections are not signifigant enough to set this bill aside. I'll pass this bill despite my objections.

--Togas

	24-02-2004 04:36									#7
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The thing is, Togas, that we do not know if there might come a time where a drastic change in the game's situation might make a sudden re-poll necessary. I do not want to limit that option from our team and have to wait 2 weeks before a re-poll.

As it stands, a re-poll on a major issue will have no trouble passing since it will obviously have been preceded by a discussion thread and have most people vote again.

	24-02-2004 13:09									#8
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I like MZ's reasoning for it. Definitely let it pass. It cleans up a lot of rules regarding the posting of polls and overall it is a decent addition to the constitution.

	24-02-2004 13:35									#10
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I said no to Consuls starting official polls before, and I'll stick to it.

I was asked why before, I got distracted and did not return to answer. Here is a why.

Polls are the way the Senate has to control the Consuls short of CoCs. With repolling being allowed so freely, no sooner can a bill be passed that the Consuls disagree with then a Consul can start a poll to over-turn it.

I agree that the circumstances of this game may require repolling when the hands of the Consuls have been tied by a bill and things change, however I think they should leave that to the Senate to do.

Finally, the Consuls need no polls to make decisions about what to do or how to do it. They have the executive power as is; they do as they see fit as circumstances arise. I do not see the need for them to be able to start and amend the bills of the Senate which are the instruments for the rest of us to have some control if we deem it necessary.

None of what I just said prevents Consuls from holding a polls to gauge support for ideas. All that such a poll would lack is the stamp of 'official', which stamp the Consuls do not need in the first place as we have allowed their offices the power of the dictate.

	24-02-2004 23:47									#11
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nye, the easiest thing for us to do would be to get someone to start the poll for us and thus circumvent the original constitution's limitations.

If it is so easy to get around it, why have that restriction in the first place? It's pointless if you ask me.

	25-02-2004 00:19									#12
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actually I think this warrants a deeper explination:

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Polls are the way the Senate has to control the Consuls short of CoCs. With repolling being allowed so freely, no sooner can a bill be passed that the Consuls disagree with then a Consul can start a poll to over-turn it.

The Senate STILL has the power to control the Consuls. This amendment is not taking away any power whatsoever from the senate. Plus, re-polls are allowed anyway at this moment, with absolute impunity on who and when. As it stands right now, a Consul could ask a citizen for an immediate re-poll and even if it won 1-0 could overrule the previous senatorial bill.

Even with the power to poll, to over-turn a bill we would have to 1) start a new discussion thread and JUSTIFY why we feel re-polling is necessary and 2) manage to get a significant amount of people to vote again.

In other words, this amendment actually requires some effort in our part to justify a re-polling, and it is aboslutely no guarantee that it will pass unless the senate changes its mind (which you seem to imply is an automatic process).

quote: Finally, the Consuls need no polls to make decisions about what to do or how to do it. They have the executive power as is; they do as they see fit as circumstances arise. I do not see the need for them to be able to start and amend the bills of the Senate which are the instruments for the rest of us to have some control if we deem it necessary. None of what I just said prevents Consuls from holding a polls to gauge support for ideas. All that such a poll would lack is the stamp of 'official', which stamp the Consuls do not need in the first place as we have allowed their offices the power of the dictate.

Your argument seems to be: if we have executive power, we don't need to poll things since we have the final word. Precisely by allowing Consuls to make polls can we offer these decisions to the citizenry so THEY have the final word on things and not us..

I will give an example: the short-rushing debate. The consuls, with executive power, could have simply gone to E_T and told him "sorry, we don't approve of it. Change the orders". Instead, we started a thread on it to get the citizens to discuss the tactic knowing that it would likely lead to a poll about whether to use it or not.

So how is all of this actually giving more power to the Hungry Men™? If you look at it more closely it actually encourages us to bring forth matters to the citizenry in cases where the senate hasn't done so themselves.

-MZ

	25-02-2004 07:36									#13
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You can poll and respect the decision of the poll, without it being binding. All that requires is a desire to be democratic, which all of the Consuls have shown for the most part, as far as I can tell.

You are correct that there would be ways around the current situation of only Senators starting polls for bills, such as the Consuls finding someone to put the poll up. We always knew that. However, it would have to be important enough that both the Consuls cared enough about it and someone else could be bothered to do it. Not a large limitation I grant you, but still a bit of one.

To me the seperation was always symbolic. I still think the symbol has some value, so I will hold my position.

	01-03-2004 02:59									#14
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Poll closed

Constitutional Amendment passes with 11 votes in favor and 8 votes against.