26-02-2004 04:08									#1
	GCA: Peace Now or 5 Turns? Support Apolyton

GWT has elected not to capture our cities that we were gifted by CGN.

GCA is moving Galleys towards El-Amarna. Chances are that GCA is going to try and capture the cities themselves and GWT will go around them in the meantime.

This means if we attack the GCA Galley in the lake now we will get peace 5 turns from now, but we will not have war happiness to counteract it (from GWT's DoW on us) as we hoped/expected.

If we don't attack the GCA Galley this turn then we can send peace accepted this turn and end the war. We will have to disband the CGN cities as GCA gets units next to them.

The question is, what do we do?

Should we attack and sink the GCA Galley now and get peace in 5 turns, or ignore it and get peace now?

No expiration, but final votes will be tallied in 48 hours when CGN completes their poll.

Last edited by Trip on 26-02-2004 at 04:27

	26-02-2004 04:17									#2
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Get a Mongoose ruling. Exactly when do we get accepted peace from GCA. Dont screw around with this. Get a ruling.

If we have a ruling that requires GCA to send us peace (irrespective if they can attack and take our cities on the next turn/ or the same turns), then we demand peace now.

If anything, GCA have always said they would follow a Mongoose ruling. So outline the past 5 turns with mongoose, and get a ruling.



But in general.. peace now !
That galley cannot hurt us.

	26-02-2004 04:22									#3
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Lucky said he would abide by the 5-turn rule when I told him at the UN that they were required to give us peace next turn. This means if we send peace accepted to them this turn (without attacking their Galley) they have to accept. Vote based on that assumption.

	26-02-2004 04:27									#4
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If we get peace now and they drop off a unit with that galley, we're going to have to attack them again, kill the unit, and then hunt down the galley again. Would likely cost us more than 5 turns total.

Not sure if the decrease in WW before that will help us or not. I'll defer to an expert on the issue. But if it doesn't help us, then my advice is kill them now, destroy our CGN cities, and then get peace ... permanently ... in 5 turns.

--Togas

	26-02-2004 04:40									#5
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Togas has a good point. We can get peace now, but with units of theirs in our hemisphere, they can force a new war anytime they want and we can't do squat....

One thing I'm not sure about:
If we force peace now, then they land, enter our territory and attack and/or pillage and start a war....do we get the happiness bonus + all the original war weariness back?

I think we can probally count on them forcing the issue if we force peace now, so I'm refraining from voting until this has been discussed a bit more.

	26-02-2004 04:53									#6
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I'm going to do some testing with that right now Wervdon...

	26-02-2004 04:56									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Togas If we get peace now and they drop off a unit with that galley, we're going to have to attack them again, kill the unit, and then hunt down the galley again. Would likely cost us more than 5 turns total. --Togas

We dont have to kill the spearman if it gets dropped off.
Its not going to do any real offensive damage.

If anything, we surround the unit, and let it attack us.

We will have a WW policy that will resolve the issue soon anyway.

{edit} - Awaiting the results of Trips testing -

	26-02-2004 05:03									#8
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This depends ENTIRELY on whether GWT attacks us on the other continent. If GWT attacks us, the negative WW means that we sink the galley.

If GWT does not attack us, we ask for a ruling from Mongoose on whether we can demand peace because GCA has not attacked us nor we them in 5 turns (with cities on the other continent, it's debatable whether we really are in peace).

	26-02-2004 05:11									#9
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kill.... that.... galley....

	26-02-2004 05:26									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel {edit} - Awaiting the results of Trips testing -

I'm having a little difficulty getting things set up (feckin' PTW keeps crashing every time I try to start a PBEM game...), but I should have all issues resolved soon.

I might have to go to dinner before I can finish my testing, but I'll have it all up within a couple hours for those waiting on the results.

	26-02-2004 05:33									#11
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in the short rush thread, we have consuls exclaiming how important our money is, how we need every gold piece ready to give to CGN...

Yet in this thread, they seem not to care about the lost gold we are experiencing from WW.

Why are we so paranoid about a galley and a spearman?

Peace now

	26-02-2004 07:17									#12
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KILL!

	26-02-2004 08:58									#13
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Jesus,Mary and Joseph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kill that dam galley

get peace in five turns

As GCA gets near the cities "Over there" just disband the dam things.

End of story, end of discussion.

He may find one of his infamous loopholes in this plan but it wont be easy.

	26-02-2004 09:14									#14
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I can confirm that war happiness does not go away after a certain period of time. It is only counter-acted by actual accrued war weariness.

Over time, war weariness does eventually go down, but it takes a looooooooong time (40/50+ turns).

War happiness and war weariness go away with peace. In addition, making peace reduces the total sum of WW already built up (in case another war is made and WW returns). So even if you make peace for 1 turn it will reduce your overall WW.

If there is any war weariness remaining for the civ attacked, the new war happiness for the civ attacked covers up the old war weariness suffered during the last war (and if WW is low enough, the war happiness can even cause MORE happiness than usual!). As with previous testing, this war happiness does not go away without a due amount of war weariness being reapplied over it.

Through all of this testing, I can safely say that if we make peace with GCA now and they attack us our WW will be negated by them declaring war on us again, and even if we attack them we will have our WW reduced, perhaps to the point where it won't affect us.

What does this all mean?

If we make peace now WW won't be a problem for us.

	26-02-2004 09:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I can confirm that war happiness does not go away after a certain period of time. It is only counter-acted by actual accrued war weariness. Over time, war weariness does eventually go down, but it takes a looooooooong time (40/50+ turns). War happiness and war weariness go away with peace. In addition, making peace reduces the total sum of WW already built up (in case another war is made and WW returns). So even if you make peace for 1 turn it will reduce your overall WW. If there is any war weariness remaining for the civ attacked, the new war happiness for the civ attacked covers up the old war weariness suffered during the last war (and if WW is low enough, the war happiness can even cause MORE happiness than usual!). As with previous testing, this war happiness does not go away without a due amount of war weariness being reapplied over it. Through all of this testing, I can safely say that if we make peace with GCA now and they attack us our WW will be negated by them declaring war on us again, and even if we attack them we will have our WW reduced, perhaps to the point where it won't affect us. What does this all mean? If we make peace now WW won't be a problem for us.

I'd still like confirmation from Mongoose or even Lucky himself, that they will accept peace.

	26-02-2004 09:21									#16
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Based on the results of my testing, I think making peace now is for the best. Hell, as I mentioned, if GCA attacks us, we might even get a happiness bonus out of it!

	26-02-2004 09:24									#17
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Given that GWT did not attack us, I definitely agree that WW is for the best.

	26-02-2004 09:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I'd still like confirmation from Mongoose or even Lucky himself, that they will accept peace.

Just got done talking with Mongoose in MSN. He said Lucky would accept "if he had the sense God gave a goose." Take that for what it's worth.

This is some excerpts from Lucky and myself at the CDG UN:

quote: And just to restate, all the GCA did was follow a ruling by the game administrator. Should the requirements for that ruling be met, we will of course sign peace when offered. As would be the case with CFC in the year 400 or 410.

Trip:

quote: And for Apolyton it would be next turn, lest you forget.

Lucky:

quote: Well, maybe. Unless you attack us again in 400AD as you did before.

	26-02-2004 09:49									#19
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Miccofl sent us a Not_Save.

Turns out GCA moved its Galley out of range of ours... we cannot attack it this turn anyways. It will be at least 3 turns before we'll have another shot.

	26-02-2004 10:25									#20
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Sounds like peace NOW is the best option.

Please consider my vote changed.

--Togas

	26-02-2004 16:05									#21
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As soon as I saw the first post I was going to vote Peace. PEACE, for the love of everything good and the rejection of all that is Lucky - PEACE!!!!

Further posts just confirmed this further.

	27-02-2004 00:11									#22
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Looks like peace plan is again moot...

Check out the GCA FAM thread...

	27-02-2004 00:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Jesus,Mary and Joseph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kill that dam galley get peace in five turns As GCA gets near the cities "Over there" just disband the dam things. End of story, end of discussion. He may find one of his infamous loopholes in this plan but it wont be easy.

I said this before and Ill say it again.

If you want an almost sure fire way out of WW, this is it.
(Almost meaning Lucky is involved so who knows what he will come up with next)

	27-02-2004 00:26									#24
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The rate it's going Lucky is going to continue finding any little loophole he possibly can to keep his WW exploit going. I wouldn't be surprised if next he says "well you guys are probably pretty close to astronomy and sea travel so that's close to being able to attack us"

	27-02-2004 00:44									#25
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Well whats the REAL problem here?

WW or the individual in question?

I for one am starting to get down right sick of all this BS from him.

Whats the solution?

If CGN pulls out I guess it will be decided for us.

Have we ever considered that?

Do we really want to continue in this game and play with the likes of him?

Im really beginning to wonder.

Thats just me though.

Maybe we ought to just stick to Demo games within Apoly.

Like a C3C DG ala PtWDG I and II, we all have a heck of a lot of fun in those games and I haven't seen any BS that even comes close to this.

Or maybe we ought to just put our foot down with CGN.

Back it up and no more exploits. Period.

I guess Im feeling kind of radical today, but you know what, when my kids have problems like this at school with other kids, I just tell them that they need to avoid them.

Something to think about.

	27-02-2004 04:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill The rate it's going Lucky is going to continue finding any little loophole he possibly can to keep his WW exploit going. I wouldn't be surprised if next he says "well you guys are probably pretty close to astronomy and sea travel so that's close to being able to attack us"

Man, I don't know when to stop laughing so that I can cry about it as well.

	27-02-2004 08:36									#27
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If Lucky is supposed to give us peace on a turn and we don't get it, we just demand it be replayed. Simple enough.