26-02-2004 13:45									#1
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What in the blue blazes am I doing wrong?

It seems like naval battles are just impossible for me to win. I'm playing Germany and am at war with the Chinese - who are to my north on a large island a short distance away by water. I'm intercepting his galleys with galleons, privateers and frigates and LOSING CONSTANTLY. It'll take 3 galleons to pull down one stinking galley. Obviously, this is going to bankrupt me at some point. I'm starting to build ironclads, but that will take time.

Any idea why? This seems to be a constant issue (losing consistently to the AI in naval battles).

	26-02-2004 14:13									#2
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Relevant unit stats (Attack/Defence/Bombard/Shield Cost) are:

Galley: 1/1/0/30
Galleon: 1/2/0/50
Frigate: 2/2/3/60
Privateer: 2/1/3/50 (zero-range bombard only)
Ironclads: 5/6/6/90

Galleons are troop ships and should not be used for attack. Use your Frigates, but in squadrons - bombard first then clean up by attacking directly. It may be worthwhile you getting the Ironclads out there though - on a cost per attack point/bombard point basis they are stronger than Frigates and will annihilate Galleys.

Still, if you can't wait for the Ironclads, the Frigates will suffice with bombard support. But don't use Galleons.

Also make sure you're building them in cities with Harbours, since they will start out as 4-hitpoints vet's instead of 3-hitpoint regulars.

Hope this helps.

	26-02-2004 22:33									#3
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You're at war, forget Privateers, you need extra defense of Frigates. But why are you just focusing on sinking galleys? They only hold 2 military. Sometimes it is better to let them land, and then blow away the land units. With luck you will get a GL who can be converted into an army put on a Galleon and then you can take it to the Chinese.

If you're going at the chinese, make sure you take care of them before the Rider comes along.

Just so you know, 2 ironclads are much much more effective than 3 Frigates even though they cost the same. 10 offense vs 6 offense.

PF

	27-02-2004 00:21									#4
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Ironclads are more effective than Frigates, but I have not been able to make myself justify the optional diversion in my tech research path.

	27-02-2004 00:47									#5
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Thriller has it right. Don't use galleons to attach other ships once you have the ability to build the offensive ships like frigates. Stack two or three frigates together and have two bombard the ship you want and the final frigate attack (unless the bombards didn't work). If you're dealing with an AI stack (they seem to like stacking three frigates with a galleon now which is good) then I would spend a few turns bombarding them all before attacking.

	27-02-2004 03:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Ironclads are more effective than Frigates, but I have not been able to make myself justify the optional diversion in my tech research path.

Excellent point. Since C3C, I don't bother with ironclads.

For me it is either a short trip with Cavs/artillery on galleons, or
more commonly waiting for panzers/infantry on transports. It's always fun to have a couple of panzer armies. If distance is long, i.e. more than one turn, I'll just sue for peace so I can research faster and build up my military for the coming excitement.

Since AI can't get too many units on galleons, if you see AI sending over unescorted galleons, build a stack of 4 frigates and destory a few loaded galleons. AI will be forced to build trask Frigates. Let them waste their cash. Cruisers are a neat response.

PF

	27-02-2004 07:54									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill If you're dealing with an AI stack (they seem to like stacking three frigates with a galleon now which is good) then I would spend a few turns bombarding them all before attacking.

I agree with Rhothaerill on this too - the AI is now regularly using one Galleon escorted by 3 Frigates. So once they have Galleons/Frigates you won't see their Galleys any more and you will need your Ironclads to assure swift victory, unless you have enough Frigates available to bombard effectively.

On attack approach, personally I usually prefer to drown the troops with the sunken Galley/Galleon (simply because that's a wonderfully evil thing to do), but planetall's point about letting them land and improving your troops' combat experience while blowing them away is also a sound tactic.

	27-02-2004 08:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Ironclads are more effective than Frigates, but I have not been able to make myself justify the optional diversion in my tech research path.

I agree in principle, but I find myself building Ironclads a lot more often now than in PTW. Reasons being:

• They now upgrade to Destroyers (which on a cost per movement point/attack/bombard are now arguably better than Battleships/Crusiers), so they never become obsolete. Under PTW they had a very short effective life which hardly made them worthwhile building.
  
• Attack/Defense stats have been boosted frrom PTW (I think?) and so they way outclass Frigates and will rule the oceans for a while.

	27-02-2004 08:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller I agree in principle, but I find myself building Ironclads a lot more often now than in PTW. Reasons being: They now upgrade to Destroyers (which on a cost per movement point/attack/bombard are now arguably better than Battleships/Crusiers), so they never become obsolete. Under PTW they had a very short effective life which hardly made them worthwhile building. Attack/Defense stats have been boosted frrom PTW (I think?) and so they way outclass Frigates and will rule the oceans for a while. But generally I'm with you - I rarely Ironclads myself, but try to pick it up on a trade so in that regard it's a "nice to have" tech. It's more on a case by case basis - build them more often on archipelago maps, less often on pangea.

It also depends on resource distribution as well with the smaller amount of strategic resources in C3C. In a recent game I wasn't at all sure I'd have oil in my boundaries and needed some stronger naval power so I took a short route to ironclads to make sure I'd have the strength I needed. As it turned out I did have oil so all those ironclads I built quickly were upgraded.

	27-02-2004 08:25									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill As it turned out I did have oil so all those ironclads I built quickly were upgraded.

Ah yes, Oil! One of those "just in case" strategies that the new resource shortages can force upon you. You can't assume anything these days!

Good point - I'd overlooked that one.

	27-02-2004 08:33									#11
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Thriller thanks for the reminder about frigates being able to upgrade now. I had forgotten and stayed with my no Frigates policy.
Time to change that now.

I am staying with the no ironclads for now, I do not want to spend time researching Ironclads, unless forced to do so. I would rather build more frigates.

	27-02-2004 08:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Thriller thanks for the reminder about frigates being able to upgrade now. I had forgotten and stayed with my no Frigates policy. Time to change that now. I am staying with the no ironclads for now, I do not want to spend time researching Ironclads, unless forced to do so. I would rather build more frigates.

Uhm, it's ironclads that upgrade...not frigates.

	27-02-2004 09:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Uhm, it's ironclads that upgrade...not frigates.

Yep, which tends to make me totally ignore Frigates and build Ironclads as my first offensive naval unit. Nothing more pointless (and annoying) than having useless Frigates soaking up maintennce costs sitting in your ports in the Industrial ages hiding from enemy Battleships. They should be upgradeable to something!

So vmxa1, my policy now is usually no Frigates (unless absolutely necessary for early IC invasion escorts), and maybe Ironclads. But since AU501 - Dromons ALWAYS!!!

	27-02-2004 10:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller So vmxa1, my policy now is usually no Frigates (unless absolutely necessary for early IC invasion escorts), and maybe Ironclads. But since AU501 - Dromons ALWAYS!!!

Heh, truly. That was the first time I had played the byzantines. I didn't realize the power of that unit until that game...especially on an archipelago map. They're monsters.

BTW, my example above was from AU501 as well where I went for the ironclad tech because I wasn't sure if I had oil or not.

	27-02-2004 11:10									#15
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No wonder I forgot, I had never done it.

	27-02-2004 21:33									#16
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I usually have a great number of frigates. The naval component of the game is one where I clearly make the choice for (what in my opinion is) fun over efficiency. I build a huge navy as soon as I am able to crank out frigates. Particularly if my continent is well in hand. Over the span of the game, I will replace them with better units and send the frigates into a coastal city disbanding them for shields.

But when it is all said and done, I have rings of naval units spanning from my coast all the way to the cultural borders of most of the other major civs. And even though I play a large map, there is very little I can’t see and can track most AI naval movement across the globe. (And lately I’ve been going into the Editor and making the world “round” by connecting the map at North and South points, as well as the usual East and West for added fun).

Wasteful? No question, since the AI at Monarch doesn’t launch amphibious attacks that well and I am over guarding my shores. But owning the seas and being able to sink everything on it, and inflict massive bombardment damage within the first turn of wars appeals to me.

	27-02-2004 21:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal (And lately I’ve been going into the Editor and making the world “round” by connecting the map at North and South points, as well as the usual East and West for added fun).

Did C3C fix the PTW problem with vertical axis scrolling? In PTW when you turned on Yaxis scrolling and zoomed out some of the cites on tundra would disappear and some of the city labels would also disappear.

PF

	27-02-2004 22:18									#18
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When I enabled the Y axis scroll, I didn’t notice any problems with zoom or otherwise. One of the major battlefields in my last game was for cities built on the tundra, and none of them seemed to pop out of existence when I went for the overview. City labels seem to remain as well, but in truth, I’m not looking carefully at city labels in zoom but taking a macro view of things.

Speaking of bugs/and oddities, here’s I did notice re: naval units: Clicking on a fortified ship to make it active can cause it to lose some of its field of vision. For example, an enemy vessels will sail up to one of my, say, frigates - clearly in view as long as my ship remains fortified. The moment I activate the frigate, the AI ship somehow disappears from sight.

	27-02-2004 22:24									#19
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Humm,

Maybe I can try Yaxis again.

That is a weird item. I rarely use frigates and only fortify when I want to pass a units movement until I am ready to use it, so I have not see that behavior. Too bad it wasn't reversed. Your frigate disappearing from site when you freeze it.

BTW, thanks for the info that ironclads are upgradeable. I just started Emperor and have enough trouble keeping up in techs. Monarch is definitely a more pleasureable level.

PF

	27-02-2004 22:36									#20
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quote: And lately I’ve been going into the Editor and making the world “round” by connecting the map at North and South points

That's not "round" as a globe, that's DONUT!
X-axis wrap is a globe.

quote: Speaking of bugs/and oddities, here’s I did notice re: naval units: Clicking on a fortified ship to make it active can cause it to lose some of its field of vision

Fortified naval units get an increased field of vision (3 tiles, patrolling in place). When you reactivate them they go back to their normal 2 tile vision.

	27-02-2004 22:38									#21
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One strange thing I just remembered re: Y axis enabled. Of the two major continents, the one I was on wrapped all the way around the world along the north south axis. The second continet was normal.

	27-02-2004 22:48									#22
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With Y-axis, I noticed sometimes the land was connected via tundra and sometimes was open water. It seems like the map generator works differently with Y-axis enabled.

PF

	27-02-2004 23:04									#23
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TheArsenal spending resources on navies has to have a payoff. You have to elect to spend on research, expanding or guns (ships included). When you spend on one, you reduce the spending on the others.

So making frigates means not doing something else. This can make sense at times, but most of the time in non island games, it is not the best way to go.

If you have enough to build ships that are not being engaged, then it is time to move up a level or two.