01-03-2004 05:48									#1
	Planetary University Bureau Get a bigger avatar today!

Since the installment of the new government is in order from today on, and as agreed on in a poll, I declare hereby the thread for PUT domestic affairs open for business.

If, by concensus, an other name for the thread is wanted, the mod can always do that later...

	01-03-2004 06:05									#2
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Gold Coast: start former production. I like some spare formers to build more sensor arrays in the north of the island.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Okay. Does that also count if Hive declares war on CC? And how about the Daintree & Longreach CP production in case of war?

Gardens Point: start Interceptor production

quote: Originally posted by Maniac How about a missile needlejet instead, as according to the previous plan to attack a base on Yardarn Island? Due to having two talents, Gardens Point is currently also our only base that can produce non-SAM aircraft without causing drone riots, so I'd say we need to make the most use possible from that.

Kelvin Grove and Carseldine: Continue producing Plasma Garrisons.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Most definitely agreed!

I suggest moving the former in Gardens Point north and build sensor arrays on the top tiles.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Okay. Does that also count if Hive declares war on CC?

Definitely!! As said when we acquired control of PUT, it will be the prime target of Drones/Hive.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac How about a missile needlejet instead, as according to the previous plan to attack a base on Yardarn Island?

If you think drones are under control in that base.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac How about a sensor array on (75.33) to protect Townsville, Cape York and Daintree, and another one on (79.39) to protect Gardens Point and Kelvin Grove?

75,33 is a good location, 79,39 I advice delay till the north is scattered with sensors. I suggest them on 75,27 and 82,26. Futher more I advice to change production from crawlers to formers in Townsville and Cape York to help build sensors. If war has started, I suppose SAM rovers are an idea for all that northern production?

	02-03-2004 04:21									#3
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Hurry requests:
Cairns hospital: 56 credits.
Carseldine: hurry four minerals or so, so that production already has 10 mins accumulated next year.

quote: Definitely!! As said when we acquired control of PUT, it will be the prime target of Drones/Hive.

Isn't that exactly why we shouldn't be building formers or CPs in those northern PUT bases, but instead plasma garrisons and missile squads?? They'll have lower morale, but we don't have the time or money to build command centers in all other bases.
Anyway, currently Gold Coast, Cape York and Townsville production are set to formers as per your request.

Some disagreements about former movements:

quote: 75,33 is a good location, 79,39 I advice delay till the north is scattered with sensors.

The north already is scattered with sensors. The only base not yet protected is Townsville, but that will be fixed by the one on (75.33). Our southern bases are still open.

quote: I suggest them on 75,27 and 82,26.

(82.26) is not within range of any PUT base. Just checking, do you know that?

quote: Former on 81,39 and the one in Gardens Point to tile 79,31 and start building a sensor array.

(81.39): We could build a road on that tile, which will result in the mine there producing one more mineral per year. How about doing that first?

Also, you say you want to scatter the north first with sensor arrays, and only then the south. But that would mean the former in Gardens Point would first have to waste 3 turns going north, build a few things, and then waste three turns going back south. Why not first build a sensor array on (79.39) and only then definitely move north? That way we'll save six extra former turns.

	02-03-2004 04:41									#4
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Check the MAF thread, I agreed there with building that sensor array on 79,39. Hadn't checked what and how many formers were able to start constructing. You can make that road on 81,39 first if you like, but wouldn't it go faster if those 2 formers work together?

About those sensor arrays in the high north (on the peninsula's), I want them there for a further view in case a drone fleet comes in. Should give us a better overlook on what's coming, or, in case the drones destroy them first, a change for interceptors to have an airparty.

For war production. Those northern bases are to small to build any offensive unit soon. That task should be left to the 2 bases having CC's. If you like, after finishing the present Garrison production, we can change to offensive, or else upgrading those 1/2/2 rovers to 6/1/2 or 6/2/2.

Edit:

I agree with that Aerospace Complex production
And for that SA on 75, 33. Can you find yourself in using 2 formers to build that, and send the 3th free one already to the north and start building a road next turn on a flat tile?

Last edited by GeoModder on 02-03-2004 at 04:54

	02-03-2004 06:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder You can make that road on 81,39 first if you like, but wouldn't it go faster if those 2 formers work together?

You mean the one in Gardens Point? If you like, I'll send it to the mine square too. It will indeed get us that extra mineral two turns earlier.

quote: About those sensor arrays in the high north (on the peninsula's), I want them there for a further view in case a drone fleet comes in. Should give us a better overlook on what's coming, or, in case the drones destroy them first, a change for interceptors to have an airparty.

Ok.

quote: For war production. Those northern bases are to small to build any offensive unit soon. That task should be left to the 2 bases having CC's. If you like, after finishing the present Garrison production, we can change to offensive, or else upgrading those 1/2/2 rovers to 6/1/2 or 6/2/2.

Upgrading those 1-2t-2 probably won't go. To 6-1-2 is impossible (you can't upgrade to a unit with lower armour) and to 6-2-2 costs 130 credits a piece. No offensive units for now the I guess. If we need some, I guess we could always upgrade the two scout patrols to 6-1-1 or so.

quote: And for that SA on 75, 33. Can you find yourself in using 2 formers to build that, and send the 3th free one already to the north and start building a road next turn on a flat tile?

Sure. Take into account though there's a one on three chance that the former will remain stuck in Cape York. That may force us to change some former plans next year.

Btw, what about switching the garrisons of Cape York and Townsville? Then Townsville, furthest located from the Drones gets the scout patrol and the more dangerous located Cape York gets the better 1-2t-2.
The same for Sunshine and Longreach? Switch garrisons? That way the mobile 1-2t-2 rover is located closer to the core of our bases and can help defend where necessary easier.
Edit: Darn, just realized this should have been in the MAF thread.

	02-03-2004 06:24									#6
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Don't bother, It's ok for me as you proposed for the garrison switches.

For that former stuck in CY, I think the change is less, since the tile I send it to is flat. Already tried it 4 times, and it never was stuck in that base.

Last minute proposal: how about quick building the cp in Daintree? Then that base can switch to crawlers or probes sooner...

Also a suggestion for the garrison in Kelvin Grove, but I post that in MAF

	02-03-2004 16:57									#7
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I've played about all of the turn following all the suggestions made yesterday. One question: should I hurry Cairns hospital production only enough to get the hospital just finished, or hurry 20 credits more so ten minerals will already be accumulated next year?

	02-03-2004 20:47									#8
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Just finish RH, no extra minerals, pls. I like to have some reserve for mindcontrolling the PEACE cp in CC turn if enough ppl want to spend the money on that. It's rather expensive. O yes, and do send ALL available cash over.

Edit:

Btw, Why not finetuning Sun Coast and letting it harvest another borehole? AC is finished 1 turn earlier, and production of Gold Coast stays 2 turns when a worker is brought to a forest tile.

Last edited by GeoModder on 02-03-2004 at 22:25

	07-03-2004 21:52									#9
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Since I haven't seen Impaler posting this weekend, I suppose I'm still PUB replacement.

Tentative Planetary University Bureau orders.

Garden's Point: Missile Interceptor, but next turn MUST a Hab Complex be started then that is quick builded the turn later.
Daintree: start Tree Farm
Kelvin Grove: start Trance Plasma Garrison
Cairns: start Probe Team
Carseldine: start Trance Plasma Garrison
Sunshine Coast: Enough ec's to hurry Aerospace Complex production?

	08-03-2004 03:51									#10
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quote: Garden's Point: Missile Interceptor, but next turn MUST a Hab Complex be started then that is quick builded the turn later.

If I understand correctly Gardens Point will grow MY 2161.
MY 2159: start construction on missile interceptor
MY 2160: interceptor (cost 15 mins) completed. 0 mins accumulated, so too few to hurry the hab complex - we need to have 10
MY 2161: 35 mins accumulated, but Gardens Point has already grown.

As far I see at first sight, there are two good ways to solve the problem:

• Build something of 36 mins cost instead, so we have 10 mins accumulated MY 2160 and can hurry.
  
• Starts construction on hab complex already. Problem is that if we want to hurry the AC in Sunshine, we don't have enough cash.

quote: Daintree: start Tree Farm

The gain would currently be 2 nuts, 1 psych and -1 or -2 credits. Is it worth the cost in your opinion?

to all the rest.

Btw, what to do with the CP and the two formers on (82.32) and (83.35)? IIRC all other former orders were already decided previous year, so those are no problem.

	08-03-2004 14:40									#11
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Quick question, since I can't play the turns until I've got internet in my dorm. About how long would it take for us to build more CP's to cover the south east of Alecrast with bases (Where I believe they're out of range of initial attacks, yes?)? With the modified Silkander style we used in the PUT, we really need more bases to make full use of the strat.

	08-03-2004 16:07									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Why not reduce Nut intake to slow Growth down an additional turn, shouldn't be to hard to make 1 or 2 workers into Librarians or something.

	09-03-2004 05:52									#13
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Archaic:

quote: About how long would it take for us to build more CP's to cover the south east of Alecrast with bases

It all depends on how much we want to prioritize CP production over other items such as formers or military production etc.

quote: (Where I believe they're out of range of initial attacks, yes?)

Not really unfortunately.
Starting from the Hivean base Zeropolis drop units couldn't reach Alecrast IIRC. But with their 12 MPs needlejets & choppers could reach part of it. This danger increases as the Hive would gain Fusion Power (14 MP aircraft) and Orbital Spaceflight (16 MP PBs), and then about all bases on currently uncolonized Alecrast would be vulnerable to a Hive surprise attack, especially if they build a base even more southwest from Zeropolis.

Impaler:

I tried that out, but then would Gardens Points talents be reduced from two to one, and since we'll have two pacifism drones next year, we need to keep two talents this turn.
Another option is of course building a CP in Gardens Point this year. Then we don't need to worry about hitting the poplimit for quite a while.

	09-03-2004 05:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I tried that out, but then would Gardens Points talents be reduced from two to one, and since we'll have two pacifism drones next year, we need to keep two talents this turn. Another option is of course building a CP in Gardens Point this year. Then we don't need to worry about hitting the poplimit for quite a while.

Not really, actually. The nutrient box is almost filled, that doesn't disappear when a cp is build, remember.

I suppose instead of an interceptor, a hab complex this turn then.

And that idea of bringing a crawler and formers to that mineral isle:

	09-03-2004 06:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac [*]Starts construction on hab complex already. Problem is that if we want to hurry the AC in Sunshine, we don't have enough cash.

Start the HC this turn, we can always delay the AC hurry a bit.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac The gain would currently be 2 nuts, 1 psych and -1 or -2 credits. Is it worth the cost in your opinion?

What cost? I'm not proposing to hurry that production (for now). Just let it start. Part of the reason is that Buster shouldn't be too alarmed of PUT production. Let him see a nation under construction, not warproducing.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, what to do with the CP and the two formers on (82.32) and (83.35)? IIRC all other former orders were already decided previous year, so those are no problem.

edit PUB orders:

Former on 83.35 moves to 84.36 and construct a road.
The purpose is to have a southern road connection to the eastern part of *forgotthenameagain* to the new bases there.
Former on 82.32 to 82.28 for road construction to 82.26 and placing a sensor array there.
CP moves to 84.36.

Btw, I thought that you planned to let more boreholes be mined by Sunshine Coast?
Hasn't been done yet...

	09-03-2004 21:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Start the HC this turn, we can always delay the AC hurry a bit.

Ok. Start the HC, or start ánd hurry it, so it's already finished next year?

quote: edit PUB orders:

Ok thanks.

quote: Btw, I thought that you planned to let more boreholes be mined by Sunshine Coast?

My idea was indeed to let Sunshine Coast work the 3 boreholes. Problem is Sunshine only has 2 citizens now so therefore I thought about first maximizing nutrient production there to let it grow to size 3 and only then switch to the boreholes.

quote: What cost? I'm not proposing to hurry that production (for now). Just let it start.

There is the maintenance cost of 3 credits per year. As a consequence for the 2 nuts we'd gain we'd probably have to pay 2 credits per year (not 3 as the tree farm would give a +50% economy bonus). Hardly a profit thus.
Also for the same mineral cost of a tree farm we would probably be able to build for example 3 crawlers and 2 formers. These would most likely give us a bigger profit than a tree farm.
We would also start getting that profit much earlier than when building a tree farm: eg while the tree farm would still be in mid-production, there could already be a few formers or crawlers running around doing terraformations or harvesting minerals. That's called "comparative turn advantage" IIRC among SMAC vets.
And due the stockpile energy bug it's in general better to build several small things than one large thing. Eg in my example above with 3 crawlers and 2 formers compared to a tree farm, Daintree would get five times more profit of the stockpile energy bug.
These are the reasons why I will usually argue against starting large production projects unless we can hurry them immediately.

	10-03-2004 00:16									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Ok. Start the HC, or start ánd hurry it, so it's already finished next year?

Just start, we got 2 turns, so let use them for saving some ec's.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac There is the maintenance cost of 3 credits per year. As a consequence for the 2 nuts we'd gain we'd probably have to pay 2 credits per year (not 3 as the tree farm would give a +50% economy bonus). Hardly a profit thus. Also for the same mineral cost of a tree farm we would probably be able to build for example 3 crawlers and 2 formers. These would most likely give us a bigger profit than a tree farm. We would also start getting that profit much earlier than when building a tree farm: eg while the tree farm would still be in mid-production, there could already be a few formers or crawlers running around doing terraformations or harvesting minerals. That's called "comparative turn advantage" IIRC among SMAC vets. And due the stockpile energy bug it's in general better to build several small things than one large thing. Eg in my example above with 3 crawlers and 2 formers compared to a tree farm, Daintree would get five times more profit of the stockpile energy bug. These are the reasons why I will usually argue against starting large production projects unless we can hurry them immediately.

Maniac, your explaining is making me . Anyway, you seem to forget that about all possible places were crawlers can do most good, are already in use. Also, I'm not proposing to slow produce it, just that it starts and after a few turns when (hopefully) all RC's in CyCon are finished, then to hurry it. Even that amount of turns is barely enough to build a crawler in Daintree, thus making your explanation a bit overdone. Besides, as Daintree continues to grow, it will generate more ec's as well, nullifying the loss of that in due time.

	10-03-2004 01:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Just start, we got 2 turns, so let use them for saving some ec's.

Okay. In that case though we'll have enough credits to hurry the AC at Sunshine Coast. Since we'll get enough cash again to do all we want in the CC turn, there's no reason not to spend all our cash on PUT production this turn.

quote: Maniac, your explaining is making me

quote: Anyway, you seem to forget that about all possible places were crawlers can do most good, are already in use.

I know. I was just using a crawler as a generic example. My point is simply that about any production item is better than a tree farm at the moment in Daintree. So you can replace the crawlers in my example by colony pods, more formers etc...
A tree farm will at the moment only give an annual +2 nuts gain, and probably an annual 2 credit cost. So as far as I see we won't gain anything from a tree farm at the moment.

quote: Also, I'm not proposing to slow produce it, just that it starts and after a few turns when (hopefully) all RC's in CyCon are finished, then to hurry it.

But we could spend those credits on projects that will give a much higher return. Even after all the rec commons are built, there will still be quite a few very useful things left to build on that list I compiled in the IAF's thread a while ago, things that give a much higher profit.

quote: Besides, as Daintree continues to grow, it will generate more ec's as well, nullifying the loss of that in due time.

Then why not wait with building a tree farm until Daintree has grown, and a tree farm will indeed have become profitable? As far as I see there's no point in constructing facilities that don't give us a profit yet, while many can be built at the moment that do.

	10-03-2004 06:04									#19
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*sigh*

Ok, this issue seems important to you. Does a Research Hospital sounds as music in your ears then?

	11-03-2004 01:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Ok, this issue seems important to you. Does a Research Hospital sounds as music in your ears then?

You seem to want at all costs build a facility in Daintree. I don't understand why. To explain why I so strongly argue against: Daintree is only a rather unproductive size 2 base. At the moment with its low mineral and energy production there isn't any facility that is worth building there, besides perhaps a recycling tanks. But even for recycling tanks there are many bases where it would be more profitable to build tanks there first - due to those other bases having a higher mineral production bonus (and thus gain more from the stockpile energy bug). So as far as I see Daintree would be best used to construct relatively cheap units, such as formers, colony pods, crawlers or probe teams.

	12-03-2004 22:48									#21
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ok Here are some more refined Internal Orders for University.

Cairns - New Production Crawler
Gold Coast - No Change
Garden Point - Start Hab Complex, make the worker on the Sea Energy Bonus a Doctor to slow growth.
Kelvin - Plasma Garrison (I would Recomend a Missle Rover though)
Carseldine - Plasma Garrison (again though I prefer Missle Rovers as their better counter attackers). Switch worker from the Bore Hole to the 2/1/2 farm.
Cape York - Hurry 16 Credits
DaineTree - Crawler or Military unit (can be changed later if desired)
Cabooluture - Hurry 10 Credits
Townsville - No Change
Long Reach - Hurry 20 Credits
Sunshine - Hurry 80 Credits, switch worker from farm to the now free BoreHole. Will be completed next turn.

	12-03-2004 23:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Garden Point - Start Hab Complex, make the worker on the Sea Energy Bonus a Doctor to slow growth.

Why slow down growth? The hab complex will be finished just before the base grows, so there shouldn't be any problem.

	12-03-2004 23:14									#23
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Oh yes Construction is resolved before growth *slaps forehead*

	12-03-2004 23:22									#24
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In response to Geo's Request for sensor locations.

Building sensors far out on the tips of University land (75/27) and (82/26) may seem like a good idea as it would extend our sensor range further into the Sea.

But Consider - The Drones have bases at (80/10) and (74/10) rougly 10 spaces from our northern Coastal Bases. They will fly their aircraft down in a single turn, their will be no units sitting around in the middle of the Sea for us to detect with these sensors. The only advantage they give us is the +25% defence Bonus which they can do much further south ware they can be constructed faster and are less likly to be captured or destroyed by incoming forces. We have crawlers that can begin building imediatly ware they are, moving them north will delay the sensors several turns.

	13-03-2004 00:21									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] In response to Geo's Request for sensor locations.

Why not do both? Bases are protected at first, and when the new formers are finished, let's extend the network north then?

	13-03-2004 21:27									#26
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Is there already a consensus on former orders? If not, I'd plan to do this:
former (78.46): plant forest
former (83.35): go NE to build road&mine
former (87.31): go to (86.28)

And here are my crawler plans for this year:

Carseldine crawler (83.31): move one tile N. Goal is to rehome to Sunshine next year to maximize nut output there.
Sunshine crawler (83.29): move to (80.32) and harvest minerals.
Sunshine crawler (80.32): move to (76.34) and harvest nutrients.
Daintree crawler (76.34): move to (80.34) and harvest minerals. Next year I'd plan to switch places with the crawler on (83.35).
Gardens Point crawler (80.34): move one tile NE and harvest minerals.

Gardens Crawler (79.39): rehome to Kelvin Grove and come back to do the same job.
Gardens crawler (78.38): move to (81.39) and harvest minerals
Kelvin crawler (81.39): move to (78.38) and harvest minerals
Goal of these three crawler actions is to boost the mineral output of Kelvin Grove, so we'll gain more "stockpile energy bug"-credits when the plasma garrison is finished. Next year I'd propose to rehome a few of those crawlers back to Gardens Point when the hab complex is about to be finished.

As for worker changes, I've moved a Gardens Point worker to the monolith. That way we get +2 psych (extra talent) and we don't need to appoint a doctor.
Also I've switched the workers on (86.30) and (78.31) between Sunshine Coast and Longreach. As a consequence the psych production of Sunshine dropped by 1 (but we don't need psych there anyway), but on the positive side our labs production in Longreach increased by 1.2

This is the current midsave. I have hardly moved anything yet though.
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php...PUT-2159mid.zip

	13-03-2004 23:47									#27
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Ok, build a sensor on 86,28 then, but I insist on one on 83,27 or 82,26 later...

For the rest, PUB civil units are Impaler's department, ask him thus.

	14-03-2004 07:05									#28
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Two little requests:

1) Could Townsville production please be changed to a ~1-1-1, <1>-1-1 or 1x-1-1? The goal is to create a unique unit which we can upgrade in the Unit Workshop to a drop unit after we get MMI next year. That drop unit is necessary to make contact with the CyCon, and thus fix the bug that currently prevents us from transferring PUT air units to CyCon.

2) Could I please ask not to hurry the CP at Longreach? Building a CP will for quite a while reduce our production with 2 nuts, 1 mins and 4.8 labs, so I'd say there are more lucrative projects to invest our credits in, eg all those rec commons in CyCon.

	14-03-2004 13:08									#29
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Both are ok for me, but I thought it would been cheaper to produce a drop unit next turn in Carseldine. That's mostly why I like to make a Garrison their this turn, so it is free to produce a drop unit in MY 2160.

And that cp in Longreach has no urgency for me. Especially since the Daintree cp will be on it's way the next 4 turns or so.

	18-03-2004 20:35									#30
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PUB military production orders:

Townsville: probably lost, but if not, SAM unit.
Cape York: probably lost, but if not, SAM unit.
Gold Coast: might be lost, but if not, garrison.
Sunshine Coast: should survive attack, interceptor.
Longreach: SAM unit.
Carseldine: SAM missile rover
Daintree: change production to SAM unit
Gardens Point: change production to interceptor
Kelvin Grove: hurry production if sufficient fundings
Cairns: SAM missile rover
Caboolture: not sure, probe team, Aerospace Complex for last standing base or SAM missile rover.

Unit movements:

I suggest moving as much formers as possible in bases for reinforcing them.
The cp near Carseldine could be moved in that base so that production goes faster.

Research:

I don't know if it's possible, but a joint beeline to Superstring Theory sounds the best choice now.
Can anyone tell me what the choices will be for the next research project?