02-03-2004 08:15									#241
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "She's never directed before" The Virgin Suicides. A very good film. I like it even more than Lost In Translation.

Uh... I'd forgotten about that film. Fortunately. But now I've remembered it. Damn you! I'll have to go through the whole therapy thing again.

(The film was pretty devoid of meaning, and frankly looked amateurish.)

quote: SHAZAM BîTCH!!!

Now... now... no need to get bratty... I'll give you some pointers for Oscar picks next year, to make nice

	02-03-2004 08:20									#242
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quote: Typically direction has to do with more than just telling him where to look, where to sit or stand... its to do with getting to compelling performance out of actors, and martialing complex productions... and thats what they award directors for. Not frame placement, and character cues.

So should we not give directors who work with good actors that award? I'm sure Peter Jackson didn't have to do anything to get a compelling performance out of Ian McKellan!

quote: It was due to win precursors from press associations?

Please try to follow the argument which has been made for pages. It was due because the previous films did NOT win.

quote: The Academy thinks that the trilogy and this film is a masterpiece too, and richly rewarded it. You think its "good". So... If you're sitting in a room with film critics or the Academy, you'd have a minority opinion.

OH. MY. LORD. I didn't know I had to worship the film in to have the 'majority' opinion. I will go ahead and give my kidney's to Peter Jackson because he is my lord. I must call it the greatest movie of all time. Citizen Kane is nothing compared to this .

If you think 'good' is a put down you are a bigger fanboy than I thought possible.

	02-03-2004 08:20									#243
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"(The film was pretty devoid of meaning, and frankly looked amateurish.)"

I thought it looked brilliant. It was done by cinematographer Edward Lachman, who also did the cinematography for Far From Heaven, which was AMAZING. He's certainly not the best, but the movie was far from amateurish.

It perfectly captures the idea and feeling of teenage infatuation... the idea of putting gorgeous girls on pedastals. To call it devoid of meaning seems pretty blind to me.

	02-03-2004 08:52									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Typically direction has to do with more than just telling him where to look, where to sit or stand... its to do with getting to compelling performance out of actors, and martialing complex productions... and thats what they award directors for. Not frame placement, and character cues. So should we not give directors who work with good actors that award? I'm sure Peter Jackson didn't have to do anything to get a compelling performance out of Ian McKellan!

Ian McKellan isn't going to tell an Peter Jackson... an experienced director how to direct... you're quite correct. If he was working with an inexperienced director, then his performance on the screen would be more due to his skill and experience than the director.

quote: quote: It was due to win precursors from press associations? Please try to follow the argument which has been made for pages. It was due because the previous films did NOT win.

First, as an independent film, this episode easily wins Best Picture, in a walk... based on critical, public and professional opinion. Its not even close. So I don't agree with your premise.

Did the film get the benefit of the doubt in a couple of categories, since the entirety of the work is so beloved by the Academy? Not necessarily.

The first you might consider is Editing. Jackson et al, had enough masterful work in this piece to justify this position... the Denethor/Pippin/Faramir scene was the editing that got the most buzz.

The second is screenplay. The field was wide open. Mystic River was rumored to be a favorite as a consolation prize. The Academy didn't feel like awarding consolation prizes, apparently... and why should they? There was certainly a tremendous LOTR screenplay, based on a tremendous source.

There were also a few artistic awards in doubt (costume, makeup, soundtrack and original song,) entirely subjective so you can't make a solid argument as to their validity. The Academies choices in this realm are therefore personal. Why should they spread out these Oscars, if they thought the artistry in ROTK was superior?

So... why is this necessarily about ROTK winning everything because it was due? Its a possible influence... but you could also make an argument that ROTK won entirely on its own merit.

quote: OH. MY. LORD. I didn't know I had to worship the film in to have the 'majority' opinion. I will go ahead and give my kidney's to Peter Jackson because he is my lord. I must call it the greatest movie of all time. Citizen Kane is nothing compared to this . If you think 'good' is a put down you are a bigger fanboy than I thought possible.

I don't know what your definition of good is, but in mine, good is a lot less of a compliment than great.

I never said greatest movie of all time... or worship. I just said great. As in "in the top rank of movie making" which is the message thats clear from reviews, and guild associations.

You say its "good", and I say thats not the majority opinion. I'm not saying that you can't hold that opinion. Just that generally speaking most critics and pro's wouldn't agree with that assessment.

I'd also say that those are better positioned to judge the value of these films, in a comparitive sense.

You're comparing it to Titanic... and theres just no evidence to suggest that its as shallow a piece of film making as that...

Do you have any actual evidence to support any position that this film will be generally viewed in "Titanic" terms in years to come, rather than "Ben Hur" terms?

	02-03-2004 09:04									#245
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quote: Ian McKellan isn't going to tell an Peter Jackson... an experienced director how to direct... you're quite correct. If he was working with an inexperienced director, then his performance on the screen would be more due to his skill and experience than the director.

You are assuming that Bill Murray told Coppela how to direct. You still haven't proven it. All you've said is that he improvised a bunch. That's nice.

quote: Did the film get the benefit of the doubt in a couple of categories, since the entirety of the work is so beloved by the Academy? Not necessarily.

Of course it did. As DD said, sweeping the Oscars shows people voting it because they felt they had to (or else be mocked by fans of the series). It seems too simple that you had at least four artistic awards 'in doubt' as you said and 'entirely subjective' and ROTK sweeps all of them. It seems that if decisions was made simply on merits at least one of them would have gone to another film. Otherwise, it would take a high probability for ROTK to win all four 'in doubt' awards.

quote: The first you might consider is Editing. Jackson et al, had enough masterful work in this piece to justify this position... the Denethor/Pippin/Faramir scene was the editing that got the most buzz.

The ending... Baaad editing.

quote: I don't know what your definition of good is, but in mine, good is a lot less of a compliment than great.

So in school when you got a B, you considered it a LOT less than an A?

quote: Do you have any actual evidence to support any position that this film will be generally viewed in "Titanic" terms in years to come, rather than "Ben Hur" terms?

Mainly because of Lost in Translation, which I feel will be viewed as the Citizen Kane of our generation: getting better over the years. And like Citizen Kane, it wouldn't have won the Oscar, leading to the winner of that award being denegrated for it.

If you want to use the Rotten Tomatoes test, you'll find that LIT compares VERY favorably to ROTK.

	02-03-2004 10:55									#246
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Imran is just pissed because his love, Harry Potter, didn't win any awards.

Imagine that, a grown man reading children's books.

	02-03-2004 11:25									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Imran is just pissed because his love, Harry Potter, didn't win any awards. Imagine that, a grown man reading children's books.

*cough*

	02-03-2004 11:36									#248
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Ian McKellan isn't going to tell an Peter Jackson... an experienced director how to direct... you're quite correct. If he was working with an inexperienced director, then his performance on the screen would be more due to his skill and experience than the director.

Bill Murray does not seem like one of those egotistical actors who try to tell a director what to do. I think that he would have treated Coppola with respect.

The fact that she has only done one other movie doesn't mean she is inexperienced. She clearly had a vision of what she wanted to create. She also would have naturally picked up directoring tips from being around her father. So she may well know a lot more about directing than other "experienced" directors.

Also, directing is a lot more than just knowing what should be said on film. It's about managing the process, bringing the best out of everyone and getting everyone moving towards the same goal (something that is easier said than done).

	02-03-2004 11:45									#249
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You're missing the point of Tolkien, OB. The Silmarillion could in no way be described as a children's book.

	02-03-2004 16:48									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki My main beef is with the hard-core LotR people who think that it represents the pinnacle of film making simply because it was a well made version of their favorite fantasy novel.

You make a good point.

My own response to the film was unquestionably coloured by my love of the story.

But you can put the point the other way round. Because an afficionado is very easily put off by someone else's realisation of his pet subject. The BBC dramatises Jane Austen very well but I sometimes have to see one of their productions three times before I am willing to let go of my irritation that their Emma or Elizabeth or whatever is not the Emma or the Elizabeth who lives so vibrantly within my imagination.

It is a measure of the LotR films that they won virtually everyone over immediately. I have seen the odd criticism directed at what was left out but no-one has said that the core of Tolkien's work was not caught - by actors, set designers, casting people etc as well as in the overall direction.

I suppose the only way to eliminate the advantage the film had from the enormous popularity of the novel might be to try to imagine that the films were based on an original screenplay, that no LotR novel existed.

Of course that is a wholly artificial thing to do but attempting it nevertheless I think in that case the films would still rate, for me, right up at the top of the canon. And I have felt almost as much of a warm and sentimental glow down the years about Casablanca and Gone With the Wind and Duck Soup and Dr Zhivago and a couple more as ever I have for the LotR novel. So acknowledging this newcomer as probably displacing those wonderful films as the best ever is not wholly based on sentiment.

I saw RotK in the Odeon in Leicester Square - a big cinema. I sat enthralled as did every other member of the audience. Zhivago gripped me as much I think, the first time I saw it. But it is a mark of what this film achieved that the only thatrical event to have transported me deper still is Olivier/Maggie Smith's Othelo at the Old Vic seen when I was a very young man.

	02-03-2004 18:01									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course it did. As DD said, sweeping the Oscars shows people voting it because they felt they had to (or else be mocked by fans of the series). It seems too simple that you had at least four artistic awards 'in doubt' as you said and 'entirely subjective' and ROTK sweeps all of them. It seems that if decisions was made simply on merits at least one of them would have gone to another film. Otherwise, it would take a high probability for ROTK to win all four 'in doubt' awards.

So this is your whole argument...

Just because they won, it proves your point...

It couldn't have been based on merit, because they won them all...

In an anonymous voting system, people were afraid of being mocked

Next time, come up with some proof better than "they won, so that means they didn't deserve it"

The higher probablity is that the academy actually thought they deserved the awards that they were given

	02-03-2004 18:21									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You are assuming that Bill Murray told Coppela how to direct. You still haven't proven it. All you've said is that he improvised a bunch. That's nice.

It's a defacto method of him telling her how to direct. He knows whats funny and what works, since he's done thousands upon thousands of scenes. He just freeforms till they get something that they're happy with.

quote: Of course it did. As DD said, sweeping the Oscars shows people voting it because they felt they had to

DD isn't any more the purveyor of the Academy's intent behind something than you are.

The precursors have been really clear. The press associations gave this show love in ways not seen in the ten years I've been watching the precursors. They had no compelling "need" to reward this film because they hadn't rewarded it before: they had.

The overwhelming great opinion of ROTK was transparently shared by the Academy.

The Guilds echoed this sentiment... and they don't favor the same form of rewarding artists for past work, in quite the same way that the Academy as a whole does.

quote: (or else be mocked by fans of the series). It seems too simple that you had at least four artistic awards 'in doubt' as you said and 'entirely subjective' and ROTK sweeps all of them. It seems that if decisions was made simply on merits at least one of them would have gone to another film. Otherwise, it would take a high probability for ROTK to win all four 'in doubt' awards.

Subjective... but then you can seperate out at least a couple... the music elements, since we know that the sound track was the most compelling, as sofar as being the best selling soundtrack. With the two remaining subjective elements, but those elements were of the highest qualitive factor, so even that is an uneven comparison.

Statistically unlikely for one film with great artistic elements to win those? No.

quote: The ending... Baaad editing.

Given the context of an 11 or 12 hour movie... simply put, no, I disagree.

quote: So in school when you got a B, you considered it a LOT less than an A?

20 percent or so less. Significant.

quote: Mainly because of Lost in Translation, which I feel will be viewed as the Citizen Kane of our generation: getting better over the years. And like Citizen Kane, it wouldn't have won the Oscar, leading to the winner of that award being denegrated for it. If you want to use the Rotten Tomatoes test, you'll find that LIT compares VERY favorably to ROTK.

"I feel" being the critical term here, based on what precident?

Citizen Kane had masterful direction, and a powerful narrative (abeit in parts)... both elements lacking in Lost in Translation.

LiT is viewed in the press as an also ran... certainly not loved the same way that ROTK and the other films have been.

A number of films...some subtle... through the years have gotten only one Oscar, and have been generally admired by the press. They haven't garnered the attention that Citizen Kane has, and mostly forgotten . Why wouldn't Lost In Translation follow that pattern. Its certainly the more statistically certain.

	02-03-2004 18:30									#253
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OOh, a Ming post I can agree with.

It boild down to the fact Imran like M&C and LIT better than Return of the King, he can see why it would win best picture, but is angry it won 11 Oscars because it denied his pets some awards..

well, get over it-I liked LIT better than LoTR's- I found Mystic River very good, I would have liked to have seen American Splendor nominated for best film even though it had no chance-but I can see why LoTR won every single award it got save best song-though some people here have argued about the quality of the song...

As for being compared to Titanic-no way. Return of the King is the final installment of the greatest movie Epic ever made.

	02-03-2004 18:31									#254
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quote: Originally posted by GePap OOh, a Ming post I can agree with.

Yes... a rare event

	02-03-2004 18:33									#255
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I mean... Starwars got no Best Picture wins (in 5 attempts)??? That must really sting with your being a StarWars fan and all, especially with the sweep by ROTK this year.

Sci-fi and comedy are traditional Oscar Poison genres.

IMHO the first Star Wars is the only one in the series that broke new ground. Reliance on special effects and mediocre (at best) acting pretty much doomed the franchise to be ghettoized into the technical categories.

	02-03-2004 18:36									#256
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Sci-fi and comedy are traditional Oscar Poison genres. IMHO the first Star Wars is the only one in the series that broke new ground. Reliance on special effects and mediocre (at best) acting pretty much doomed the franchise to be ghettoized into the technical categories.

I (apparently) incorrectly remembered Imran as a Star Wars fan. He's apparently bitter about Harry Potter instead...

* MrBaggins chuckles

	02-03-2004 18:39									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Bill Murray does not seem like one of those egotistical actors who try to tell a director what to do. I think that he would have treated Coppola with respect. The fact that she has only done one other movie doesn't mean she is inexperienced. She clearly had a vision of what she wanted to create. She also would have naturally picked up directoring tips from being around her father. So she may well know a lot more about directing than other "experienced" directors. Also, directing is a lot more than just knowing what should be said on film. It's about managing the process, bringing the best out of everyone and getting everyone moving towards the same goal (something that is easier said than done).

This discussion of LIT misses the point. I don't question Sofia Coppola's direction. I think it was strong.

The point:
The Oscar she got was for original screenplay. Given the there was a significant amount of improv to the script, I question whether she deserved that award.

Discuss.

	02-03-2004 18:59									#258
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins DD isn't any more the purveyor of the Academy's intent behind something than you are.

If we are going to use that as a standard of proof, why do you expect us to take you seriously? I'm not stating this for a fact but given how the series had been overlooked by the Oscars in the past the sweep feels like them trying to make up for that.

	02-03-2004 19:04									#259
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How much was the film improv'ed? Cite?

Regardless, she might not have written the absolute greatest screenplay of the year but she do all the other things involved in putting a successful Sophia Coppola film together, from directing to producing to strong casting to not acting herself( ). You gotta give her something.

	02-03-2004 19:07									#260
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If we are going to use that as a standard of proof, why do you expect us to take you seriously? I'm not stating this for a fact but given how the series had been overlooked by the Oscars in the past the sweep feels like them trying to make up for that.

I don't expect you to do anything, save possibly back up your points with some valid points.

Hint... reverse logic and "feelings" are less valid than the reasonable logic of the massive majority... *gasp*... thinking ROTK was great... in those categories.

There is certainly firm evidence that a huge swath of movie people thought this was great work, that had no need to reward "due"ness... I.E. the critic associations.

	02-03-2004 19:12									#261
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Yes and there is a great deal of evidence that Fellowship should have won when it was up for Best Picture. That's why ROTK's win stinks of "due"ness now.

	02-03-2004 19:22									#262
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Regardless, she might not have written the absolute greatest screenplay of the year but she do all the other things... from directing to producing to strong casting to not acting herself( ). You gotta give her something.

No, I don't.

So you're saying that this Oscar win is based on factors other than writing, and you're OK with that.

The award is for Original Screenplay. If the actors did a lot of the writing, how can she possibly deserve it??

I think she got it because of who her daddy is.

	02-03-2004 19:27									#263
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"Evidence"? What is this, the Kennedy assassination? The Skull and Bones society?

DinoDoc, the reason that it smacks of "dueness" is because you are absolutely correct: The voters held off on the first two movies to see if he could maintain the pace for all three. "A Beautiful Mind" smacked of "dueness" as well, a reward for a well-liked and respected Ron Howard, who has earned well over $1 billion in worldwide box office receipts. "Gladiator" smacked of dueness as a nod to Dreamworks SKG and a mollified "we're sorry for the Shakespeare-in-Love fiasco, we still love you Stevie" award to Spielberg.

	02-03-2004 19:30									#264
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes and there is a great deal of evidence that Fellowship should have won when it was up for Best Picture. That's why ROTK's win stinks of "due"ness now.

Lets imagine FOTR had won, and also ROTK -which got a critical reception worthy of a winner anyway. After all, FOTR got 12 nods, ROTK got 11 nods, but TTT got only 6 and did not do that well....

Would it be fair what is essentially one single project released in 3 installments to win 2 best movie Oscars? Wouldn't that be like having a miniseries on TV win multipe Emmy's for different episodes, the one on monday, the one on tuesday- instead of getting one.

The fact is that LoTR was a brand new enterprise-3 movies filmed at once. Unless this becomes a common thing and we get an Oscar for "best movie series", you will have what you got this year, which is one incredible multiyear project gettingh and award and unfortunitelly perhaps running over one year projects which had to compete.

	02-03-2004 20:10									#265
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit No, I don't. So you're saying that this Oscar win is based on factors other than writing, and you're OK with that. The award is for Original Screenplay. If the actors did a lot of the writing, how can she possibly deserve it?? I think she got it because of who her daddy is.

You're totally missing the point.

The Academy Awards is a ceremony presented every year by people in the film industry for people in the film industry. The ballots are given only to people in the industry, and only people in the industry get to perform or attend the Oscars. This is a close-knit professional community with most of them living in one of two worlds: LA or NYC (mostly LA). They all have professional, financial, sexual, marital, contractual, and other ties to one another, many of these ties lasting only for the life of the production. The thing is, the Academy isn't a group of insiders in a room somewhere arguing it out, they're a community of about 5,000 people living in the Los Angeles basin who receive these ballots at their home or office.

So the ballots go out. The people get them, they meet at work. What do you think they're going to talk about? When they read that morning's Variety and see 12 pages of ads congratulating various nominees, do you not think it has an effect? Harvey Weinstein throws a few parties with a bunch of lavish gifts, and all of a sudden Private Spielberg is halted halfway out of his chair, stunned and puzzled...that's not my films name. And when people vote, they vote not on technical merit (that's what the nominations are for) but on a host of factors, including:

Who is sleeping with whom?
What film made a lot of people very comfortable or rich?
Who hasn't received one of these?
Who do I not want to offend?
What meds were I on when I filled out the ballot?

And that's the thing about the Academy Awards that frustrates a lot of people: they're not about well-defined artistic achievements, they're more about the Los Angeles film community congratulating itself.

Did Sophia Coppola get a lot of good press because the fact that her dad is Francis Ford Coppola, the director of the Godfather movies, the Conversation, Apocalypse Now? Well, duh! Did a lot of voters get tilted by remembering that she was the baby being baptized in Godfather 1? Probably. Did she get a few "redemption" votes for Godfather 3? More than likely.

Is any of this a reason to give her an artistic award? No.

Is it a reason to give her an Academy Award? Yes.

	02-03-2004 21:19									#266
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Pretty funny, John.

1. I couldn't miss the point. Having started the Sofia sub-thread, it was my point. I was suggesting that the award was not based on the merits of her writing. You agreed.

2. I wrote basically the same lecture about the nature of voting for the Grammies. I also wrote an adjunct rant (concerning the voting advantages of big productions) for this thread.

I'm well aware of how it works, and I wasn't surprised that she won (predicted it in the Oscar voting thread).

I was really only trying to find out which other screenplays were truly deserving. No one has filled in that blank...

	02-03-2004 21:37									#267
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit *SNIP* I was really only trying to find out which other screenplays were truly deserving. No one has filled in that blank...

OK...

Finding Nemo. Absolutely top notch screenplay... led to tremendous box office run, and massive adulation. Its subject matter and form are looked down upon as low brow however. I think that it was certainly deserving, and could understand the argument that this should win.

In America. A good screenplay, although with a much more narrow focus, and nostalgic twist, than the others. I liked the sentiment of the screenplay, if not all of the implementation.

Barbarian Invasions... I didn't see it but discussed the film at some length, with my brother-in-law. We came to the conclusion that it "tries too hard" to be this profound story, and comes off looking contrived.

Dirty Pretty Things... one of my favorite truly original thrillers... taut, funny and multilayered. If I were in sole charge of the award, this would be my choice... well... this or Finding Nemo... but I would probably have last minute second thoughts about Finding Nemo...

	03-03-2004 02:43									#268
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The coronation of the LOTM is one more proof that the oscars have went hilariously but also sadly downhill... .

	03-03-2004 02:49									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Imran is just pissed because his love, Harry Potter, didn't win any awards. Imagine that, a grown man reading children's books.

I know lots of adults who read Harry Potter. It aint Tolstoy, but its a wonderful set of books with lots of wit, great charecterization, and some really moving things about love, loyalty, depression, etc.

The films thus far have tended toward the mediocre however. Emphasizes once again that filming a popular set of books, with a big budget and good actors, is NO guarantee of making great movies.

	03-03-2004 02:50									#270
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Congrats to LOTM for his Oscar win-

how was the afterparty?