01-03-2004 19:50									#1
	THIS HAS GOT TO STOP, NOW or else Get a bigger avatar today!

First off, as I have had public words with Trip about several things in the past month, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to him and the rest of the team. I've had a little too much stress with RL and keeping things going here, but that really isn't an excuse, thereby, the heartfelt apology.

* E_T is really sorry for the public things that he has posted that weren't constructive to the team

Now, on to the issue at hand. The current Consulship and Bigfree's war of words. It is going to stop now, no more debate.

I've had a few discussions with MrWIA about this and have been reading between the lines of several of our more active team posters. And everything points to a great dissatisfaction about this constant war between the two sides. IT HAS TO STOP NOW!!.

And to this end, I will make the following PROMISES (not to be confused with threats):

To the Consuls: Stop being concerned with what Bigfree has to say. If he wants to post foolish things, let him. If he wants to make a public A$$ of himself, then don't let it bother you. Spend your limited time working for the team and not being concerned about one individual. IF BF has something constructive to say, let the discussion flow from there, our team membership is mature enough to listen and know what is right or not.

For IF YOU DON'T Stop it right NOW, I WILL call a CoC on any and ALL Consuls that do such a thing. IF it even requires us to be totally leaderless because of this, then so be it! The team is not served with this kind of behavior. PERIOD!!

To Bigfree: I know that you are a valuable member of this team. I know how hard you have worked to help get us here to where we are. And I for one want you to continue to be an active participant in our team.

You may think that you're being a voice of the people who don't like some of the things that the Consuls might or might not be doing. You might look upon yourself as a self appointed watchdog, trying to keep the Consuls in line to what the team needs. But the only thing you're really doing is making it a lot worse.

I have no idea what has happened to you to make you this way, but it needs to stop, for the good of the team. But be warned, I (or I imagine a few others) will not stand for it any longer.

And because you're not a Consul, I can't promise to call a CoC on you, so this is even going to be harder to do.

I will start reporting your flames to the gOdZ! If that doesn't curtail you, then I will then go as far as posting a poll to have you temporarily suspended from the team. And if that still doesn't do it, then a poll to have you removed from the team.

And this doesn't apply to just you, but to anyone in this team that starts to do things that disrupt the fragile unity of this team. We have lost at least 1 member (F-P) over all of this months ago and there is no telling as to if this has affected the activity levels of other team members. This has been going on for far too long and will now stop.

And as this action, that I'm taking, is completely against the way that things have previously been done in the past, I'm also making this thread an informal opinion poll. This will gauge if I'm right to take this kind of action, for the good of the team or if I'm just being an A$$ myself with this type of action. But we will let the team decide if this will be policy or not.

The Poll will run for 2 weeks, it will be multiple choice.

I would like it if the Consuls would Top this tread, so that it's available for everyone to see for a while.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 01-03-2004 at 20:27

	01-03-2004 20:00									#2
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These are strong words, but nothing I have not considered myself recently. If it can't all just stop then please keep things in this thread. The other threads are for getting work done, not for hijacking with the same accusation and counter-accusation over and over again.

I support E_T in all of this. It is a bit of a leap for me, as I too do not want to hurt posters I consider to be friends of mine, but I am sick of it all. There will always be spirited disagreements and heated debate - hell, that's what makes DGs great sometimes - but there is too much now, and it is not constructive either, going nowhere.

Again, this sounds very strong, even to me now, but there seems to be no other way to strangle this waste of everybody's precious time.

	01-03-2004 21:02									#3
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I agree completely this has got to stop.

All I ask is that you understand that we have tried our utmost to present to the team our sides of every issue, whereas BF has, for the most part, responded with constant trolling about us "hungry men" in every single thread.

Our great mistake has been to even bother to respond to him since it only leads to further trolling. The team truly does not deserve this. I apologize for my participation in these heated exchanges. From now on I think our respective actions should stand by themselves.

I also support the citizenry taking even more drastic action (CoC, banning) on him or us if this continues. I'm glad some of you finally had the courage to make this thread.

-MZ

	01-03-2004 21:24									#4
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Frankly, much of what E_T says, chimes in with my own thoughts and feelings. I myself have no "good guy" in this war or words. I can sometimes see BigFree making good and justified points, but the way he is presenting them makes me far from eager to support him. At other times, it's the Consuls that are right (in my eyes), but the way they take upon BigFree and respond to his posts make me less than excited to say so.

The result? I no longer even read some of the posts. This has not happened to me anywhere else. Not even in the PtWDG public forum in the most heated days.

I would also very much appreciate if this stopped.

	01-03-2004 22:09									#5
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Have I been kind, thoughtful and considerate towards the Consuls lately?

Their actions and words have led to my own. Maybe it's not what everyone else would do; but should I be concerned with what 'you' would do if you were dissatisfied with the way they are conducting themselves?

The "war" so to speak, started when the Consuls, started bashing me about my UN posts. Not only in these forums, but in at the UN and in chat. I had had enough and was going to let them and the rest of the team know how I felt and how they were conducting business.

I could[i] have been nicer; I [i]could have just ignored it; I could have just quit the team instead of complaigning about what I think is wrong.

Instead, I've voiced my opinion. Though it is harsh, I feel it only matches the level of criticism the Consuls laid on me in the first place. I have been critical of the Consuls actions, but I have not just been 'flamming' them or 'bashing' them.

If the Consuls want me to stop being critical of their actions, then they should consider acting like Consuls.


ET: Go take a flying leap you two faced imbecile.

quote: To the Consuls: Stop being concerned with what Bigfree has to say. If he wants to post foolish things, let him. If he wants to make a public A$$ of himself, then don't let it bother you. Spend your limited time working for the team and not being concerned about one individual. IF BF has something constructive to say, let the discussion flow from there, our team membership is mature enough to listen and know what is right or not.

First you claim that the "war of words" has got to stop. I guess this doesn't apply to you. Because, then, later in your post, you berate me by saying that I'm foolish and that I make an A$$ out of myself.

Then, to show that you are two faced, you post:

quote: To Bigfree: I know that you are a valuable member of this team. I know how hard you have worked to help get us here to where we are. And I for one want you to continue to be an active participant in our team.

Make up your mind ET! War of words or not?

To the team: I'm sorry if I have been disruptive and make everyone uncomfortable. That has not been my intention. I'm sure most of you believe my #1 goal is to win the game and try to enjoy myself along the way. I felt as if the Consuls actions were not allowing that and voiced, very heavily, my disaproval. I apologize to those that were offended.


I will not post any further in this thread.

	01-03-2004 22:44									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree ET: Go take a flying leap you two faced imbecile.

:sigh:

we have really reached a new low today...

I guess E_T was right. We really should have kept quiet and let our actions stand for themselves. This post just proved it.

	01-03-2004 23:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Instead, I've voiced my opinion. Though it is harsh, I feel it only matches the level of criticism the Consuls laid on me in the first place. I have been critical of the Consuls actions, but I have not just been 'flamming' them or 'bashing' them.

It's not the criticism that is making others feel uneasy here. It is the way this criticism and responses to it are being presented. Your opinion may be harsh, that's how opinions sometimes are... you certainly are entitled to harsh opinions. The way you present this opinion should never be harsh. If for nothing else, then because you are hurting your own interests.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree ET: Go take a flying leap you two faced imbecile.

Just like this one. If you think ET is a two faced imbecile, then it is your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to (though it's really really sad to hear you think so). However, voicing your opinion in the way you did is unacceptable in a decent place this forum is supposed to be. It's not about 'telling truth' or 'not being hypocritical' - it is about the basic politeness. Even harsh opinions are supposed to be presented in a certain way, that is a commonly respected norm. If you are not able or willing to, you should realize that your opinions, which may be right at times, are unlikely to be appreciated because of your manners being wrong.

That was the case when the whole thing started about your UN posts. It was not what you said that was the problem. It was how you said it. You can accuse another player of cheating and still remain polite. I bet that if that was the case, hardly anyone would disagree with you here.

Being polite to your opponent or enemy may, but need not be a sign of your respect for him. However, being polite will always affect how others respect you. Acting in a polite or rude way always reflects upon how other people perceive your personality and upon how likely they are to listen to and support your cause.

	02-03-2004 00:22									#8
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I had a long post here. Then I deleted it. Then I typed a new one. Then I deleted that.

Then I read Vondrack's post above.

What he said.

-Arrian

	02-03-2004 00:31									#9
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Why is this thread topped? Important, sure... but topped? I have a feeling it can probably stay on the front page all by itself.

As for E_T's statement, I'll say this: The timing could certainly have been better. Though the Consuls and BF have had quite a public spat recently and that certainly might have been a good time for E_T to come out with something like this, things had calmed down significantly in the 3-4 days since we agreed to at least mostly bury the hatchet (at least I know BF and I basically did). I'm not sure that blowing this issue back out into the open after it was in the process of calming back down is going to be productive for the health of the team.

Water under the bridge now, I guess.

	02-03-2004 00:58									#10
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Here I go posting in a thread that I said i wouldn't. But, I felt the need to address vondrack.

vondrack: Why is it ok for ET to make a post/thread, first asking that the "war of words" stop, then proceed to berate me by implying that I'm foolish and an A$$?

If ET had a point to make about ending the apparent hostilities, He did the cause no favor by provoking them himself.

That said, I will certainly try to tone down my methods of delivery. I'm sorry I may not always be as eloquent as others when I disagree with something or someone. I am simply letting my feelings be known in the best way that I know how. If I didn't react to others then it would be because I didn't care either way about the game or the team.

Arnelos: Yes, I had let it go. But first MZ and then ET seemed to want to protract things a bit...

	02-03-2004 01:00									#11
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Ok, I stand corrected. I just read through the other threads on the forum. It's obvious that the attempt to "bury the hatchet" agreed to last week has failed in the past 12 hours between BF and MZ, in particular.

While I welcome that a citizen like E_T is finally addressing the problem rather than leaving it to the Consuls alone to be stuck between the rock and hard place of trying to get BF to stop and yet not becoming like BF in the process, I'm not sure his method is all that much more productive.

My reading of the situation is that the team has already made it abundantly clear that they do not have the stomach for this type of thing in the forum. Given that, we agreed to bury the hatchet in the forum for the good of the team.

So while I hope that E_T's ultimatum (of a sort) may aid in helping participants to adhere to what the team already made clear that it wanted, I'm not convinced that the execution of E_T's "ultimatum" will be any more healthy for the team than the behavior it is attempting to end.

	02-03-2004 01:06									#12
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Oh, and again, why is this thread topped?

I don't mean to be too accusatory, but I honestly can't see why this thread needs to be topped.

	02-03-2004 01:09									#13
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I didn't top it.

	02-03-2004 02:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree vondrack: Why is it ok for ET to make a post/thread, first asking that the "war of words" stop, then proceed to berate me by implying that I'm foolish and an A$$?

I might not have used the part about the public A$$, though I understood it as "if you, Consuls, feel like BF is making a public A$$ of himself... blah blah blah". ET later used the A$$ word speaking of himself, too, so I would assume that someone with a skin of your thickness should hardly notice at all.

And the line on "implying that I'm foolish" deserves one more comment. Even if I said that you'd said something foolish, I'd not be saying, nor implying that you were a fool. Heck, I consider myself everything but a fool, yet I am perfectly capable of saying a foolish thing - and do so more often than I'd wish.

This works the other way round, too. If you disagree with and attack someone's opinion, statement, idea, whatever, I might agree you're free to use words of higher punch to denounce it (though you would probably soon realize that addressing just the opinion/idea, many "troublesome" expressions vanish kinda on their own). Because that opinion, statement, idea, whatever is clearly defined and can easily be denoted as stupid, foolish, outrageous, ridiculous - you name it - based upon arguments. The other person can argue back and possibly admit the idea was stupid, foolish... or not. Next time, over a different matter, both of you can start from scratch, be it again on opposite sides, or agreeing, but likely holding little to no grudges.

Once you attack the person, though ("a two-faced imbecile"), then you are in for a trouble. ET cannot really argue he is not a two-faced imbecile... or admit he is one, for that matter. Aside from behaving like a saint, ignoring your insult and calmly explaining or clarifying (making you look even more rude in comparison), pretty much all he can do now is to ignore you or throw something back at you. Neither of these options is constructive. Next time, over something else, whether you agree with ET or not, there is still this two faced imbecile thing hanging in the air...

Simply posting the two quotes you found contradicting each other, asking "Alright, ET, now who's waging the war of words? What does this mean? Do you imply I am a fool and public A$$? Or a fool and public A$$ very valuable to this team? Or what? " would make your point, too - but in a more decent way, allowing ET to clarify or rephrase.

I will stop here, as I am getting too close to lecturing, which I myself am not fond of. I pointed this opinion/person thing out, because on many occasions throughout the last heated debates, I felt that those involved (not just you, BF) were forgetting of the difference.

	02-03-2004 02:53									#15
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Good points vondrack. You definatley have a way with words.

ET: If you meant no offense towards me, then I apologize for my remarks.

	02-03-2004 03:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Arnelos: Yes, I had let it go. But first MZ and then ET seemed to want to protract things a bit...

Gimme a break. Things had calmed down and then you resumed your not very helpful comments which served only to attempt to tarnish our actions or positions instead of offering anything constructive. This was in the the turnthread, the savegame service thread and ultimately the Hello Leute thread.

And I didn't respond to you in the first two because your posts had been frankly, laughable, your post in the Hello Leute I did feel I need to address with a quite lenthy post since you now basically accuse us (especially me) of lying to the team for the sole purpose of going against you in a poll. Why you even bothered to bring that up when the poll went in YOUR favor and we ended up disbanding the cities just proves that the one who refuses to lay down the hatchet is YOU.

I understand why E_T made this poll and I understand why most of the people are sick of this endless argument. However asking us to ignore all this trolling against us is much easier said than done when you step into our shoes. None of the previous consuls, nor any minister has had to face such an endless barrage of provocations like we have during the past weeks, practically in every thread, against every post and every line of reasoning. I would like to ask E_T if he would not get pissed if someone started berating his work as MoI on every thread, offering no constructive criticism, and just making rude sarcastic remarks.

Again, I am glad that fianlly somone had the balls to draw the line and say this is enough. But understand what we are subjected to daily and ask if it is us who have not put an end to this or if it was BF. I know I am the least neutral person to say this, but I honestly hope the citizenry take some serious action against the insults that BF has dished in this thread and to his constant trolling. Other than that, warnings and lectures have proven to be useless against him.

Yes I am sick of this. I've thought more than once that this is my last month as a consul and have no need to put up with this crap after that since I'm not even getting paid for it. But I will not let one person spoil this team's fun, nor ruin my attempts to serve to the best of my abilities.

-MZ

	02-03-2004 03:11									#17
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See, MZ, give him just one more chance...

	02-03-2004 03:17									#18
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@ Vondrack

	02-03-2004 03:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack See, MZ, give him just one more chance...

I'll give him one, i'll give him two, i'll give him 10. It's not up to me since frankly my position in this debate is far too biased. I leave the number of "chances" to the citizenry, who I trust will demonstrate that they will not take this crap anymore.

For my part, on the next troll I see hurled my way by BF, he'll be the second person ever to pay a visit to my ignore list. I guess this is ultimately (but sadly) the best solution.

-MZ

	02-03-2004 04:00									#20
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On a more serious note, MZ... Having been a consul and a long time leader of Lego myself, I very well know how you feel. I had the same problem here a looong time ago and in Lego, too. At times, I just couldn't help feeling attacked by some and not supported enough by others.

But one thing I learned (at least I hope I did): you can safely ignore sarcastic remarks. If you really believe the other guy is just a pain in the a$$, trolling & poisoning the waters only, just let it be... if he is, others can easily see it, too (if not, you're wasting your time with such people in the first place). If he's not and it's in fact you at fault, then you'd only make things worse (for you). Whenever he brings up a point and you feel others might actually support/follow him because of not knowing all the facts or seeing just "his side of the truth", respond, explain, argue, perhaps even fiercely oppose, trying to get the support for your cause - that's what leaders are supposed to. But focus on the matter at hand, forgetting of the individual.

Use your posts to primarily address the rest of the team, not the individual driving you mad.

Chances are, you will find you need fewer words of smaller caliber to do that. After all, you probably do not care about that individual's opinion too much (and if you do, he's apparently hardly an a$$hole, no matter how much he pissed you off at the very moment)... it's the opinion of the others that matters much more - at least as long as your leadership and the course you wish to pursue are concerned.

Hmmm... I guess I should save this, ahem, "gem of wisdom" and sometimes even follow my own advice...

	02-03-2004 04:19									#21
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quote: I agree, things have gone too far and need to stop, for the good of the team

Yes.

vondrack,

	02-03-2004 04:25									#22
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Wise words of wisdom from a consul who has been an example to all of us who have followed.

I know sometimes it is hard to follow our own advice, we are after all only human, with the tendency to snap when things cross the line. And since they've been crossing the line practically daily, we realize that our patience unfortunately has a limit.

The problem I saw, and I will be honest, is I didn't see any effort by any citizens to at least warn or tone down some of BF's comments. Both here and in the chatroom I've felt it has only been us three Consuls trying to reign in his little smear campaign, with everyone else - until now - just keeping quiet. This obviously carries some serious backlashes since we will end up appearing as actually trying to shut someone up... and thus indirectly aiding his accusations of power-mongerism.

I was disappointed that the citizens finally called an end to this but only after the situation got out terribly of hand, since this could have been avoided much earlier with a bit more resolution. I am however, relieved that someone DID finally attempt to end it.

-MZ

	02-03-2004 04:35									#23
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Well ET has reached something with this post: that by his initiation and the help of others like Vondrack and Arnelos, the tone has somehow cooled down a bit.

I totally agree with Vondrack and I see we all do, including BigFree. Now that we do this, I think the War of Words, of which I only coincidentally saw the last part happening before my eyes, is over.

Time to shake hands, consuls, BigFree.

From now on you are friends and there exist no ignore lists for each other. You simply forget what has happened, bury it deeply away, only to look at it when you've finally totally overcome it and the wounds you now have are totally healed. Then you can look back at it and say: how foolish I was to act like that. How is it possible that I didn't see then?

This clash made me think of my clash with Vondrack in may 2003, When I now look back I just don't understand why I took that way to reach my goal, which I never reached.

Some things are also like they are and cannot be changed and everybody is in some way unchangable and that is not ment to offend: one has certain habits, the other one is simply opinionated etc, etc. We are no gods, we cannot change them, we can only try to make them change themselves by presenting arguments to do so. If they don't we cannot change anything to that and we can only wait for an election when they are in power to vote them away. When they are not in power, they will have to learn by themselves that when they are ignored by everyone they have nothing to do and either go away, or adapt to the others.

For you I suppose that is not the case, just shake hand s and forget and think ten times before you say something, sleep a night about it and if you are still sure that it must be said, think ten times about how to say it.

Aidun

	02-03-2004 07:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The problem I saw, and I will be honest, is I didn't see any effort by any citizens to at least warn or tone down some of BF's comments.

Perhaps they didn't all see it as me trying to smear you. But merely, at the heart of my posts, opposing your views. Some have posted that while they do not agree with my delivery and not even with the whole of my messages, they did have some merit. But because you and the Consuls were so irritated by my approach it made it impossible for you to seriously see things from my point of view.

I agree that the tone used in them can hardly be considered constructive. The more you bereated me, the more I picked apart your style of leadership said you were all power hungry and vice-versa. It was all down hill from there; and not in the good sense of the phrase.

Let us bury the hatchet.

	02-03-2004 08:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Let us bury the hatchet.

Thank you BF.

I would appreciate if you buried the hatchet with ET as well.

YOU and HE are two of my favorite team members.

And I have said this before, with all the sometime "raw" talent we have on this team, if we work together we are unbeatable!!!!!!!!

	02-03-2004 11:33									#26
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Only a few points (hopefully), as perhaps there is some progress here..

Everything E_T has posted he has not posted alone. I share every one of his statements, and thus anything aimed at him is aimed at me also. I am prepared to forgive all concerned for getting caught up in the heat of the moment, but please do remember to think twice about your words before posting in future. Make your concerns heard about game events and each other, but try to do so in a way that highlights why you are unhappy and potential solutions, and not to spend too much time and effort on running in circles.

I think I was particularly disappointed that everyone involved in the worst behaviour recently is or was a Consul. I hope I am not alone in considering all of this far below what a leader should be doing, and I look forward to us getting over it and getting on with it.

I believe I know everyone involved in this well enough to say with confidence that you are listening to our concerns and will ultimately do what is best.

	02-03-2004 13:16									#27
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I have nothing against BF (or any member of this team) that I can't live with. I'm someone who it takes a lot to get to the point of being angry. I'm not spiteful and I don't like holding grudges, because It;s not healthy and I don;t have time for that kind of thing.

My belief is that you are a good person and that there is something that has been giving you troubles, thereby taking your frustrations (or whatever) out in your postings. I don't really think (although I could be wrong) that they are made with malace in mind. I have had a lot worst thrown at me and I've survived, and I hope that you can too.

E_T

	08-03-2004 01:32									#28
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I'm not even reading all of this. It's just too boring and annoying.

	08-03-2004 02:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I'm not even reading all of this. It's just too boring and annoying.

and it's also like soooo yesterday's news

	08-03-2004 03:14									#30
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It's better left alone
for dust to cover
and for minds to forget

Aidun