01-03-2004 20:05									#1
	How to hurry tech research ? Inflate your Upload Space

I'm new to this forum and read a long time before writing....

I've read that some players can hurry up tech research and get new tech every 4 turns

How can you do that ?

	01-03-2004 22:28									#2
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Simply by having a very strong economy. You generally need to be in Republic or Democracy, and late in the game. If you're getting enough commerce, you can simply put the research slider to maximum, or close to it, and still be making enough money to get by. It helps to have lucrative deals with other civs, which can give you enough income while you're doing that. So it helps to have already made good tech discoveries to sell them in return for a lot of gold per turn, or to have good resources and luxuries to sell them.

In other words, there's no golden secret to it - it's just a matter of playing well. But I do think that making good trades is key. Four turns is simply the minimum time to get a single tech.

	01-03-2004 22:37									#3
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Modern age techs are hard to get in 4 turns without a defict. I t depends on your level and your empire.
The cost factor makes research more expensive as you move up and once you take the tech lead, you have to research on your own.

You can run defict spending. You can use scientist and taxmen to boost beakers and gold. You need to have all the city improvements in all viable cities (libs/unis/banks etc).

Science wonders can also up your stats.

	02-03-2004 03:00									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Plotinus In other words, there's no golden secret to it - it's just a matter of playing well.

Well, there IS a golden secret, but I doubt I'll ever use it. If you get a Scientific Great Leader, you can use him to create a scientific golden age. If I get one (and so far, I've gotten precisely one, in AU501), if there isn't a Great Wonder that I want to rush right now there soon will be, and unlike MGLs you can apparently get an SGL when you already have one (on alternate blue moons, I think).

	02-03-2004 03:06									#5
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If you want help with this, get Smithswhatsitsname. All the gold you save on the commercial buildings can go back into research, and at the end, when the slider is punched down to ~10.0.0, the buildings multiply the gold you will get by about 1.8 (around an extra 200 at the end of the middle ages, 1000 end game).

	02-03-2004 17:37									#6
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Well, yes. I believe Mr. Smith's golden machine is the most important wonder in the game, if you want to build things and be 1st in research, that is...
An early Wall Street is the second best one...
Of course, NOT building lots of useless military units also helps...
Oh, this is my ... day, it seems...

	03-03-2004 08:09									#7
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I've never really been into Smith's myself....although this has probably got more to do with it's position in the tech tree compared to other wonders that I really want to have and so my best cities may be building Sistine and Bach by the time the inevitable Economics trade comes around. But I take your points about the cumulative effect on your income being quite powerful - I will have to try it and see.

So I'd like to pose a question - I noticed that some of you were using the luxury slider for much of the recent game on "caretaker" MS's Emperor thread, often at around 20%. Although I don't know individual trade/luxury circumstances, having to use the slider is usually a necessary evil and it never fails to horrify me how much a 20% luxury contribution costs you in terms of lost income/research. This is the main reason I go for Sistine every time I can (and to a lesser extent, JS Bach). With Sistine, once you've got your Cathedrals in place (and this applies to ALL your cities), happiness is usually not an issue, and you may even get the slight corruption-reducing bonus of WLT*D's.

[Pause to take a breath]

So my question, finally, is.......

Smiths is clearly a commerce based wonder while Sistine is a happiness based wonder. However, to the extent that Sistine allows you to operate with the luxury slider at a lower level, will the additional net income this allows you to generate through lower entertainment costs be less than or greater than the cost saving associated with Smiths?

My feeling is that the indirect commerce benefit of Sistine is probably greater than the benefit of Smiths in many cases. However, as is often the case, it probably depends largely on game conditions and play style.

For example, Smiths pays maintenance cost for trade-based improvements. For most of the game this means Harbours, Marketplaces and Banks (with Stock Exchanges/Airports/Comm. Docks coming much later). If you have a decent sized empire of say 50 well developed cities, it's easy to see how this can add up to a sizeable sum of money saved. In my last game I had only 24 cities so the effect would not have been as great if I had owned Smiths, whereas in past times I have had as many as 100 or more cities (many of course quite useless without many improvements and I doubt I would build so many cities again). Checking my last save, with 24 cities, a 10% luxury slider movement cost me 150 gold. This would not be a linear calculation though, and this number will increase more slowly as number of cities increases.

This is where play style comes in. When I first moved up to Emperor level, I generally gave up research and bought my techs because it just looked too hard. Over time, the folly of this strategy became clearer to me and I now concentrate on researching as fast as I can (hand in hand with better MM), but place a lot more importance on tech selection, allowing me to trade with the AI in a way that I hope will push me forward faster than any rival civ. Using the former approach, Marketplaces and Banks were pretty high on my build list. However, with the tech rate set at 80-100%, these trade improvements provide almost zero financial benefit. Compared to the science boost from Libraries/Universities and the culture bonuses, the build-list is a no-brainer (at least from an improvement choice standpoint). This means I will rarely build Banks and Stock exchanges until very late in the game. Marketplaces are of course important due to the happiness bonus (if you have at least 3 luxuries), and you may have Harbours in half your cities (more in archipelago, less probably in pangea).

So, given that you may not actually build some trade-based improvements until quite late in the game, the overall benefit of Smith’s may be less than you would otherwise think.

Also bear in mind that Economics comes quite a bit later than Theology in the tech tree (minimum of 3 techs if you go straight there, but probably more assuming you beeline for Theology then switch down to Invention). So if we assume (with allowance for trading) that you will research 4 techs between Theology and Economics at say 7 turns/tech , and given Sistine and Smiths both cost 600, you may build Sistine some 28 turns before Smiths is built (ignoring SGL’s and assuming similar pre-build opportunities). If you have Cathedrals up in most cities by then, this 28 turns will convert into a significant income gain from not using the luxury slider – assuming you haven’t accumulated enough luxury resources to avoid the slider (and if you have, you’ve undoubtedly paid for them anyway). Again – money today is worth a lot more tomorrow.

So based on the above, my feeling is that Sistine is a better overall wonder than Smiths. Faced with a choice of finishing Sistine or switching the build over to Smiths if I get Economics quickly (unlikely since I would have pre-built for Sistine so this choice would only arise if mega-trading brings Economics very quickly), I would choose Sistine every time.

Cheers!

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 03-03-2004 at 08:15

	03-03-2004 13:11									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Since they come so far apart, if you can get Sistines, you can get Smiths. It is quite easy to miss Sistines above Emperor, unless you want to dedicate yourslef to it as a must have.

Some times I look at who is going for what. If a civ on the land mass is the likely builder of Sistine, I may let them do the work and pick it up a bit later for free.

I am not so sure about getting cathedrals in many cities after the first dozen or so. Maybe a handful later by the FP. So really how many cities will I have with them? I will have more cities with Harbors and markets. Even really bad coastal cities will have harbors. Often they will be captured with them and markets.

	03-03-2004 13:39									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Since they come so far apart, if you can get Sistines, you can get Smiths.

Perhaps, but the point of my analysis is that Sistine is overall a more valuable wonder than Smiths. If you can get them both then great. If it's a choice, I'd go for Sistine.

	03-03-2004 17:01									#10
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As vmxa1 stated, you can easily get both of them.
I (amost) always go for the 'north branch' like this:
By the time you get Literature, start a palace pre-built. In the early Middle Ages, go for Engineering and trade it for Feudalism and Monotheism.
Then I have THE choice: I can either go for Leo (I usually skip Sun Tsu) or the Sistine. The moment you make your choice (in this case, the Sistine), start a second pre-built for Smith and go for it directly (forget Printing Press).
The AI usually pays very well (gold + techs) for Education, Printing Press, Banking and Democracy.
But there is another advantage: the AI goes then for Music Theory and Free Artistry and loses precious turns researching them (+ lots of shields building the associated GW).
One of the reasons why I usually get insane amounts of gold is that I combine the power of the Sistine and Smith. Of course, you must have cathedrals, marketplaces and banks, this is why I usually don't go to war (errr, military police expeditions) during the MA.
Then you can afford to put the luxury slider at 20-30%.
Another thing: be very careful about what you build in (totally) corrupted cities, except for avoiding a cultural flip. A cathedral which costs me 2 gold/turn and brings me (sometimes) +1 shield +1 gold is a nonsense (but maybe I'm wrong on this account).

	03-03-2004 23:36									#11
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Thriller I am questioning the true value you place on Sistine, because I am dubious of having as many cathedrals as you are counting on. In C3C those cities after 15 maybe 20 are going to be hard press to build one and it is probably not a good investment to build one in them. Maybe once they get to size 12 or more they can afford it. After 25 or 30 cities, I really can't see it.

So this is why I am not so sure Sistines will be the best thing in town. Late game, those cities will be metros and will be able to make specialist and the gold will fuel research.

In short if I go for Sistine, I will surely get Smith. If I miss Sistines, I will still go for Smith.

	04-03-2004 06:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Modern age techs are hard to get in 4 turns without a defict. I t depends on your level and your empire. The cost factor makes research more expensive as you move up and once you take the tech lead, you have to research on your own.

If you're aquiring techs that fast, you can finance them by tech trading if you're playing against at least 7 civs. Sell them to backward countries, or stategically. When civs are buying from you, they tie up money that they could be using to buy from competitors.

	04-03-2004 06:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic If you're aquiring techs that fast, you can finance them by tech trading if you're playing against at least 7 civs. Sell them to backward countries, or stategically. When civs are buying from you, they tie up money that they could be using to buy from competitors.

The point is that you will have a hard time researching that fast, it is presumed you are running at a deficit. If you can crank out 4 turn techs in the modern age, you need to find a better game.

Trading or selling won't increase the number of beakers you can generate. It will finance the deficit.

Anyway it is unlikely that you will have 7 civs left at that stage of the game and that they will have much money. There are no backward civs in the modern age in my games. Either the other civs have dusted them or I have, if they were on my land mass.

	04-03-2004 09:38									#14
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MS - again, I don't disagree. If you can get both then wonderful. In terms of which has more impact on your ability to generate commerce, I was trying to show that there is a commerce side to Sistine that players often don't appreciate because it lowers your luxury slider if you get your Cathedrals in place. Sistines + Cathedrals in most cities is a long term investment that will allow you to run the slider at 0% in the Industrial age, just when you need a research boost.

vmxa1 - I guess it depends on the sie of your empire. I generally build Cathedrals in any city that can give me say 5 shields or more. Any more decent contributor I would probably go for University first for the research, but Cathedral first if not. And I like the culture boost of both anyway. If I've got enough spare cash, I will rush them both anyway.....which again Sistine helps because you can keep your luxury slider down.

	04-03-2004 09:49									#15
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I forget what do they cost 160 shields for most civs. That will take some time for most cities on outskirts. Don't get me wrong, I put them up where ever I can justify it. I won't in cities that need 80 or more turns.

The point about the lux slider is one I am not so sure of. Once I start using it, it almost never gets down to zero again.

	04-03-2004 15:18									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

I like Sistine's, particularly if religious. But I rarely put everything on the line for it, because mostly it just isn't worth it. If I felt for some reason that I wouldn't get many luxuries after Navigation then I'd try harder, but otherwise let the markets do the work.

	05-03-2004 01:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The point about the lux slider is one I am not so sure of. Once I start using it, it almost never gets down to zero again.

...except when I screw up after checking the tech rate I can get at 100%...

	05-03-2004 05:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard ...except when I screw up after checking the tech rate I can get at 100%...

You're not alone there

	05-03-2004 20:07									#19
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Growth. Growth = more pop, more cities, more tiles worked, move tiles developed (more workers to build those roads and whatnot).

Corruption fighting is also key - building courthouses and positioning your Forbidden Palace (something I feel I'm still learning to do right under the new 1.15b patch corruption rules). It does seem that an old rule of thumb works ok: stick it in a former capital of a neighboring civ.

Of course city improvements and government choice matter too, of course.

But the basic thing is to learn to love growth, not fear it. Growth (and therefore granaries) is good. Then you need to learn how to harness the power of population: good expansion & development (workers!) of your terrain.

There are lots of threads in the "Must Read" section that should be useful. However, be aware that most, if not all, were written while playing vanilla Civ3 or Play the World, and so do not take into account the changes incorporated into Conquests (the change in industrious worker rates, the change to the Forbidden Palace, etc). It's a good place to start, nonetheless.

-Arrian

	05-03-2004 21:18									#20
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Republic/Democracy, tight city spacing, well-developed cities and relatively good land can get you 4-turn techs starting near the end of the Medieval Age. Mix in a bit of war and a well-placed FP and you can keep that pace until you blast the SS off.

The biggest factor in this is having enough cities, and having them large enough to produce large amounts of gold (as Arrian said, love growth... it's the most powerful factor in Civ 3).

	05-03-2004 21:59									#21
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Tech every 4 turns is great, but it can often be at the expense of the overall tech rate. For the fastest pace, you want to be researching techs every 4 turns yourself, without gpt "contributions" from the other civs. Thus they're researching at full capacity too, and the whole world advances very rapidly.


Dominae

	05-03-2004 23:14									#22
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Quoting Thriller(I think)

quote: but probably more assuming you beeline for Theology then switch down to Invention

Is this common amongst the higher level players?

Generally I pick either the top or the bottom(often with a Chivalry detour, though) and stick with it. What's the reasoning between going partway down one path and then the other aside from enabling wonders?

Just wondering.

	05-03-2004 23:21									#23
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Agreed. Theology then Education and then continuing on that path means that even emperor level AIs will pick up Feudalism, Engineering, Invention and maybe even Gunpowder. It's useful for early finishes to stay on one path.

	06-03-2004 01:10									#24
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Depends on how the game is going. If I have good land, secure borders and am happy with my situation I'll take the upper path. If I gots some peeps to kill, then I take the lower one.

	06-03-2004 01:17									#25
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Oh, I meant the switching, Trip - going to Theo then changing branches to Invention(or vice versa).

Is it common to move from branch to branch to open up wonders, or is there another reason, or do most players pick a branch and hope the AI researches the other one?

	06-03-2004 01:19									#26
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Depends on how many AIs are left alive and their current research capabilities.

I usually just stick to one path or the other, often the top one. Sometimes when the AI really sucks at research I do both paths...

	06-03-2004 02:22									#27
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Ducki there are reasons to do either. One reason to switch is that you have the GL and want to avoid Education as long as you can. You also may want to make an attempt to get an SGL so you may well be researching at a near max rate, in spite of the GL.

	08-03-2004 07:59									#28
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DAM, I'll jump in with just a few comments, adding in to the excellent advice provided above:

* Roads and rivers: Commerce is exchangeable for tech research. So, in addition to Arrian's comments re growth, you need to maximize gpt.

* Exploration: Have you seen all the commentary re Scouts and Curraughs (including 'suicides')? Being an early tech broker due to contact advantages is very powerful.

* Tech leads: Do NOT research what the advisor suggest... learn what is maximally tradeable to the AI civs. Gaining a branch tech lead (do you understand that concept?) is invaluable, especially for the several tech 'chokepoints' or 'corridors'.

* Extortion:
*

	08-03-2004 08:55									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

ducki, in response to your original question.....I agree with what you've said (though I'm not sure what higher level players actually do ). I was only providing an example of how the time between Theology and Economics can be greater than it appears on the tech tree.

While my approach is flexible depending on what techs the AI already has and so is driven largely by trade opportunities (ie, how quickly can I get as many techs as possible)....my preferred approach is to go for Theology first, then continue on to Education and Banking/Astronomy - gotta get those Universities built! Hopefully, I will pick up Engineering in a trade and also Chivalry. I rarely research Invention and Gunpowder myself. I may then drop down to the lower branch to go for Chemistry.....or if somebody already has it, possibly research an optional tech on the upper branch such as MT in order to provide trade opportunities. As I don't often go for Magellan's or Smith's, I rarely research Economics or Navigation myself and sometimes only pick them up after entering the Industrial age.

	08-03-2004 10:46									#30
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Smiths will pay for a lot of research.