04-03-2004 02:03									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The only thing that has been left out of the discussion of RR' is our border.

As long as we do not expect an attack we can delay connecting the perimeter of the island.

What about being able to reduce our barriers as we get cities and borders railed?

BTW I thought we did mention railing grass to allow mininig. It is not easy to remember to list everything each time a topic is broached. That is what is good about having so many teammates.

The appearance of DeepO and now Dom have livened the debate and CH's yeoman work made it exciting again. Glad to see you contribute.

	04-03-2004 02:05									#62
	Put an end to popups!

Stealing has been considered... In case teams band together, we won't get ToE anyway, however the chances of ND and GoW helping Lego instead of us are slim, if they get convinced of the best way

Anyway, ToE they couldn't steal from us, even with all the cash in the world, if we build it the same turn we research it. And that has been the plan. And stealing electronics and atom would take the better part of 8000 gold. They have to use their GA to get to SM, so that kind of cash is not easy to get... but it could be done, no doubt about it.

DeepO

	04-03-2004 02:07									#63
	Remove this text

vmxa1, no worries on RR irr grass: I mentioned that before

DeepO

	04-03-2004 02:10									#64
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If anyone objects to disbanding 2 knights in Elipolis, do tell me now!

DeepO

	04-03-2004 02:22									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I was under the impression that their rise on the powergraph was rather dramatic, and though I may be wrong about this, I thought that gold had a smallish effect on the powergraph. Wouldn't that need to be a HUGE amount of gold to have the type of impact we've seen?

In my experience you need about 5000 Gold to start noticing it on the Power graph. Assuming Lego has Marketplaces (maybe Banks) everywhere, they generate this in ~10 turns.

quote: Why? Why couldn't we just trade the workers?

Oh yeah! Make it so!


Dominae

	04-03-2004 02:37									#66
	Got spare money?

We should probably raise it on the public forum. It would show good faith. I'd rather do that than do the trade and then it comes out later how we did something other teams found questionable.

It would also settle the issue for the other teams.

Let's be up-front about it and raise it publicly.

-Arrian

	04-03-2004 02:39									#67
	Got spare money?

Right now, we need those workers for RRing, though... maybe later we can swap. But as long as we don't need it, there is no need to give others any ideas

DeepO

	04-03-2004 02:56									#68
	Inflate your Upload Space

He was talking about after RRing was done.

-Arrian

	04-03-2004 03:27									#69
	Inflate your Upload Space

Start

Cyclone completes Worker, starts worker
Tempest completes Newton! starts bank
Sufa completes lib, starts market (size 11)
Blizzard completes harbor, starts market (szie 11)

238g Steam Power in 3 turns @70%, 509bpt, 3gpt

Moves

- reg MI near Typhoon moves into Typhoon and disbands. lib build comes from 3 to 1.
- reg MI near OG moves into city and disbands. Marketplace goes from 15 to 12
- vet warrior moves into Sufa, and disbands. Worker from 2 to 1
- shuffles all around to get the empty places covered.
- 2 vet knights disband in Elipolis. Aqua in 14 instead of 25.

- 4 workers at WW9 move to WW99 and help in the forting
- 9 workers in SS go to A9.
- 5 workers from SS6 go to A6 (note, this was a bit of a mistake, only 2 should have gone, the others needed to mine first. But I think I can correct it next turn. I didn't want to replay, first because I'm not sure on legality, second as I've been playing this turn for 2 hours now, to optimise stuff)

- Galley2 (which is actually a Galleon we upgraded in Monsoon last turn) moves 4122, to go see if there's a little island down there (I doubt it, but you never know)
- our Western most galleon starts 3 from a Lego caravel (Horatio Nelson). Moves 3222 to uncover some more fog.
- our Southern most galley (off the coast of Panama Vox) has two Vox caravels close by, being VCS Intrepid and Fearless (at 3 and 88). Moves 6, spots no seawall near Panama Vox, but another Lego caravel (Isaac Newton) at 22. moves another 33, and sees no units near Invoice either.
- Northern most galley moves 663. Spots no units near Hope either... will move into the black next turn
- last Galleon (Eastern most, quite close to our Western most on the other side of the dayline) moves 322, spots a Lego Caravel at 33. moves another 2 (Lego is now 6)

workforce shuffles
- D-ville uses 4 mountains (including iron from Monsoon) for 4 turns, then gives iron back to Monsoon. This will end the market in 6 turns instead of the 9 now (7 without the iron).
- Monsoon switches iron mountain to normal mountain. No effect on eta of uni.
- hills-Salsa between WW, Monsoon, Arashi and Tempest gives one more incense to Tempest. Net effect: +3 bpt.
- Inchoff moves one worker from a mountain to a coast. harbor delayed by one turn, but this can probably be corrected later by running food deficit for one turn.
- SA moves one worker from a mountain to a coast. No effect on eta lib
- Hurricane is a bit of a headache. Set to max commerce (including the river furs from EotS, but with one coast set to a mountain for 2 turns. Build changed to CH. After those 2 turns, we can set it back to max commerce (plus iron) without changing the build time.
Oh damn... that's the fourth time I rewrite this. Final configuration is one river fur for Hurricane, 2 mountains. This gives an extra 2 bpt to EotS.
Phew
- SS set to work 2 plain, 1 fp. Needs a mine on one of them to get the worker pump up to speed. It would use another fp for the extra commerce, if that wasn't given to Tempest
- Tempest uses 1 fp instead of a plain, to get +3 bpt. Also, one of the hills is switched to the incense on the desert. Another +3 bpt. build time for bank goes down by one turn though, but those shields will spead up a market by 2 turns, so that should even out.
- Sufa and Tornado switch a couple of sea - coast tiles. Also, Tornado switches from one bonus grass to sea, while Sufa takes that bonus grass. The reason is that Sufa needs it to get to a worker next turn (with help of the shields from the warrior). A market build would come too late, and we would run into happiness problems.
- WW switches coast (to 7), so that OG can use one more coast, instead of sea. It can't go further then that, though... I think what you saw, Dom, was just something when experimenting, happens to me all the time
- WoC switches grass, so that Inchon can switch grass, so that Elipolis can use a grass instead of a coast. Once the foodbox is full, we will have to change back for a couple of turns, to get more commerce, while waiting for the aqua to finish.

Instead of the switch from lib to harbor as Dom proposed, I let the lib finish. Next turn, we'll build a worker there, after which a harbor or market can start. Reason is that we can't go one size higher before running into happiness problems, and building a harbor now would mean that. One more worker, I'm sure Dom can appreciate that instead of his suggestion

Current Builds

Eli : Aqua in 14
Inchon : CH in 2
WoC : Aqua in 10
Inchoff : Harb in 8 (will get back to 6 next turn, needs to grow first)
Diss : market in 6
Santa Ana : Lib in 6 (back to 3 next turn, needs to grow first)
Blizzard : market in 10
Monsoon : Uni in 18 (will drop one more once iron can be worked again)
Arashi : ToE in 15 (14?) via Palace
WW : aqua in 16
Tempest : bank in 9
SS: worker in 1
Hurricane : CH in 5
OG : Mkt in 10
EotS : Hoover Dam (via Sistine)
BB : lib in 7
Cyclone: worker in 2
Tornado : Uni in 24 (will get down soon, Sufa needed the shields more)
Typhoon : Lib in 1
Sufa : worker in 1

Other

At turn end : 345g Steam Power in 5 turns @80%, 526bpt, +4gpt workforce optimisation netted us 15 bpt, -4gpt(but we disbanded 5 units)

We're now weak compared to both ND and GoW (and Lego, of course). Didn't pay attention when it happened exactly.


[b]Next Turn[b]
space holder

Turn done... and will be sent in half a minute. I have to say this has been tougher then I thought, much worse then playing a PBEM on your own. But fun, in a way

DeepO

	04-03-2004 03:37									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Inchoff moves one worker from a mountain to a coast. harbor delayed by one turn, but this can probably be corrected later by running food deficit for one turn.

I'm not sure right now exactly what the tile composition is in the area, but I remember thinking that the Governor would assign the new Laborer to a Mountain. Therefore the Harbor should complete on-schedule.

quote: WW switches coast (to 7), so that OG can use one more coast, instead of sea. It can't go further then that, though... I think what you saw, Dom, was just something when experimenting, happens to me all the time.

That's not how I remember it, but it's highly possible.

quote: One more worker, I'm sure Dom can appreciate that instead of his suggestion.

Heck yeah! We might even want to produce another Worker there after the first, Shields-permitting.

Good job on the turn!


Dominae

	04-03-2004 03:40									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

For the record, I would have preferred a Worker in Blizzard. But it'll all work out in the end.

	04-03-2004 03:46									#72
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Lego built Back's before or instead of Sistine? That's odd...

there is an ancient agreement that all teams signed with lego, which lets them be the builder of Sistine, so they have been using it as a prebuild for other wonders: bach's smiths so far.

	04-03-2004 03:58									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae For the record, I would have preferred a Worker in Blizzard. But it'll all work out in the end.

Woops, sorry, forgot about that one. I'll check if I can break into the queue before ending the build phaze (should work, Typhoon is before Blizzard). As long as we don't change WF compositions, that's no exploit.

As to the governor in Inchoff: I thought it would use another coast instead of a mountain, but you may be right. It is quite heavy on shields allready, and needs food. But even with delay, it is worth it for the commerce alone.

DeepO

	04-03-2004 04:06									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian He was talking about after RRing was done. -Arrian

I guess it is the same thing, but we could just put some workers in the capitol and sell them to RP for 1 gold. It is at least a clean way. No less of an exploit, so would still need to be mention to the masses.

	04-03-2004 05:05									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Great work, Deepo

	04-03-2004 19:01									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It would appear Lego is *NOT* maintaining a sea wall, but rather is using a fairly large navy as pickets. They have that luxury on their west coast (not so much on the east). Frankly, that is something we will need to switch to for our east coast later in the game, as we build more ships, the east coast knights can be disbanded (possibly to assist in the construction of more ships). That's a fair bit into the future, though.

-Arrian

	05-03-2004 14:49									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Regarding trading workers with RP - That's going to cause some logistical problems isn't it? If we trade our workers to RP, they go to RP's capital. They have no road route back to our territory (which is where we need them to be, since we have far more workers and don't want them all in RPs territory). Which means shipping them - which wastes turns (or are we doing this when there is no pressing need for them any more?)

	05-03-2004 14:51									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Regarding trading workers with RP - That's going to cause some logistical problems isn't it? If we trade our workers to RP, they go to RP's capital. They have no road route back to our territory (which is where we need them to be, since we have far more workers and don't want them all in RPs territory). We can't ship RP workers ourselves, so they'll have to do it for us - which means creating a gap in the sea wall to let them in - and having them control the worker movements in our territory.

Unless we can persuade RP to build a huge horde of workers to give to us - which is going to slow down their economic production.

	05-03-2004 15:04									#79
	Get a bigger avatar today!

vulture, I think the idea was to let RP use our workers in their territory, while we use theirs in our. Otherwise, you would be very right!

Something else: I've noticed before that workers can change nationalities when trading them. In SP games, when I (Egypt) receive a worker from the Vikings, and give it to the Romans, the Romans don't show a captured Viking worker, but an Egyptian. It's not always like that, and I don't know what is going on, but we might be able to use this to trade our workers to RP, and receive them back next turn, getting them for free.

It would almost certainly be an exploit, though

DeepO

	05-03-2004 21:49									#80
	Suffering from ads?

Workers would be traded after our rail network is up (and perhaps RP's), so there's no real logistical problem assuming we have a ROP with them (you know, infinite movement and all that).

The reason we're trading them after rails is that we want our Workers to be as fast as can be during this project.

It's just a way of saving 20-30gpt. It also opens up the possibility of keeping a much larger team of Workers ready (say, up to 50 or 60) without detriment.


Dominae

	05-03-2004 22:33									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Again, I definitely think that we should discuss it openly in the public forum before doing it, to avoid problems down the road.

I myself am unsure about the legitamacy of it. On the one hand, it's difficult to argue that worker trading should be banned outright, since it's in the game, and because it's certainly conceivable to have a situation where one team pays another in workers for a tech or something like that. On the other hand, it's also difficult to argue that two teams swapping workers en masse to avoid upkeep costs is within the spirit of the game.

-Arrian

	05-03-2004 22:40									#82
	Suffering from ads?

I agree.

	05-03-2004 22:50									#83
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

a few workers traded for actual work is perfectly fine. using it to avaoid costs is not, imho.

	05-03-2004 22:51									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

One possible rule to limit worker-trading exploits:

You can trade workers from civ A to civ B. Once civ B has some of civ A's workers, B cannot give any native workers to A; slaves originally from A must be sent back first.

So for example, if we had RP slaves, we would have to give those slaves back to RP before we could give them any GS workers. This arguably limits things very slightly where there have been genuine slaves taken during war, but in that case, I imagine you'd want your own captured workers back first anyway, before trading for someone else's workers as slaves.

	05-03-2004 22:56									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Personally, I'd be inclined to apply the same rule to captured artillery (which has no upkeep costs), but I don't know how plausible it is to keep track of where arty units came from. Didn't ND / GoW discuss this during the war and decide not to do it?

	05-03-2004 23:07									#86
	Remove this text

I also feel like this is a bit "exploitish" and should be raised openly first. I would also raise a more strategic issue here: Wouldn't allowing this move give more benefit to our adversaries than to us?

Think about it:
1. We have less land than most (all?) of our competitors. Thus, we would generally need fewer workers than our enemies.

2. At the same time, we are economically more powerful than any of the other civs. As a result, our workers' support costs are a smaller percentage of our economy than our enemies' workers would be to theirs.

Unless we're certain that we'd benefit more from this rule than our adversaries, we shouldn't even raise this for discussion.

	05-03-2004 23:59									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I may have misunderstood, but I thought we were talking about after RR is done. Then we do not need as many workers and would be better off using slaves if we have enough for pollution and such.

I agree it may not be allowed and we should ask Trip, not a public forum. I don't see why we have to tip off everyone to all the ideas we come up with. This stuff should be determined before the game starts or by a referee. I dislike alerting people to gambits that they may have forgotten.

Same as in card games, I do not care for other helping people figure out what they have, if they don't know too bad.

My personal view is it should not be allowed.

BTW I don't see any issue with selling workers at the std price 120 gold. This is what the AI will do, so it is kosher. Not sure if it is worth while or not.

	06-03-2004 00:02									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: You can trade workers from civ A to civ B. Once civ B has some of civ A's workers, B cannot give any native workers to A; slaves originally from A must be sent back first. So for example, if we had RP slaves, we would have to give those slaves back to RP before we could give them any GS workers. This arguably limits things very slightly where there have been genuine slaves taken during war, but in that case, I imagine you'd want your own captured workers back first anyway, before trading for someone else's workers as slaves.

That sounds pretty good.

-Arrian

	06-03-2004 00:17									#89
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I agree it may not be allowed and we should ask Trip, not a public forum. I don't see why we have to tip off everyone to all the ideas we come up with. This stuff should be determined before the game starts or by a referee. I dislike alerting people to gambits that they may have forgotten.

Mass Worker trading to prevent upkeep costs is indeed a no-no (and if other teams have/will consider(ed) it, I have/will inform(ed) them the same, privately).

	06-03-2004 02:03									#90
	Put an end to popups!

Seems fair to me.