02-03-2004 04:03									#1
	Current Issues Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've started this thread because I'm sick of coming to this forum and only finding useless threads about cr@p that is completely unproductive. Rather than threads inwhich game stuff can be discusses and input given. This has been going on far too long and has to stop. In every other private forum I have access to there are active threads about current game stuff that I can contribute to and find out whats going on in whereas in this forum there are only un-productive threads.
I'm making a stand here, there's no way I'm going to let this great nation fall apart because everyone was f**cking about when they should have been improving our chances of winning the game.
That being said perhaps we can draw a line under everything and start being constructive from now on.


Anyway I've looked at the save but have a few questions, I don't want to step on E_T's toes here talking about domestic stuff but I would like to have a better feel of whats going on and think that he would likely appreciate the feedback and input.

How long exactly will it be before the palace jump. IMO the sooner the better as alot of our core cities seem to be producing settlers (to keep low pop?) when perhaps lesser cities would be better off doing that as it is not very efficient to take sheilds and growth from core cities to build cities that aren't going to be very productive.

Also I figure we probably need 3 "2 turn" workers pumps
and to have them actually producing workers right now or as soon as possible. We are looking good for tile improvements but there is still alot that needs to be done and we could do with being able to add workers to core cities rather than having them produce the 40 food themselves. I guess the Bananatopia, and the 2 cities to the SW of Karina building granaries are set to become worker pumps????

Is AP really building a granary? It is possible to have too many granaries and I think we're coming pretty close to it, we only really need granaries in cities designated as worker pumps anything else is not worth the 60 shields.

Once we get the palace jumped we could do with looking at letting our core cities grow and build more improvements, ming really needs an aqua IIRC. The sooner we can have the big productive powerhouses the quicker we can compete with GWT.

Also I think the sooner we can GA the better as the boost becomes less and less important when in the IA as RRing and mobilization can produce similar effects anyway, IMO it would be alot better to GA before entering the IA or perhaps GAing to get to the IA before anyone else or before the war is over.

What is the current state of play with CFC? When was the last time we had contact with them and is it still unlikely that they will try something with Riders? Would we be able to handle an attack from a 20-30 riders? I suppose we could do with getting a few muskets pretty quickly just incase.

We currently have 6 settlers and another 3 or 4 from apolyton is that not enough to build all not completely corrupt cities?

With the fact that GWT appear to be waiting for the slow movers rather than pressing forward with the ansars it looks like the war could hold out for some time especially with CGN close to GP. A landing against their FP would indeed be devestating....

I'm sure there are more issues that I meant to bring up and if I can remember them I will do so.

	02-03-2004 04:14									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yet another major issue not yet addressed

Negotiating with all teams for a plan to eliminate war weariness exploiting.

We received a recommendation from GWT ... have we responded yet ?

	02-03-2004 04:23									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So what do you think we should do about that then?

Personally I'd say screw em it won't be our problem once we get peace it will only be GWT's problem getting peace from CGN at some point. Let CGN give them a load of turns of WW it's no less than was done to us?

Can we get some kind of plan to rehouse CGN if it all goes pear shaped? The land to the north of Apolyton would be cool I guess.

	02-03-2004 04:25									#4
	Re: Current Issues Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks a lot OPD: I just posted a thread to set up this discussion ("What's our best unit?"), and you just go ahead and let the cat out of the bag. Thanks a lot.

quote: Originally posted by OPD Also I figure we probably need 3 "2 turn" workers pumps and to have them actually producing workers right now or as soon as possible. We are looking good for tile improvements but there is still alot that needs to be done and we could do with being able to add workers to core cities rather than having them produce the 40 food themselves. I guess the Bananatopia, and the 2 cities to the SW of Karina building granaries are set to become worker pumps???? Is AP really building a granary? It is possible to have too many granaries and I think we're coming pretty close to it, we only really need granaries in cities designated as worker pumps anything else is not worth the 60 shields.

I agree with all of this.

It seems E_T is planning to put a Granary in all fresh water cities to speed up growth. This is not the right way to do things, IMO. Rather, we should put Granaries in 2-3 non fresh water cities, then use the Workers from them to grow the others.

We have ~30 Workers right now. I suggest we get up to twice that many in the field, and keep producing and joining Workers until most of our cities are maxed out in pop. This is where Gold for rushing will really come in handy, by the way: Aqueducts, Harbors and Marketplaces are must-haves during a population boom. Unhappiness is not such a big deal because we can always turn Citizens into Specialists.

At the very least we should get all our non-pump cities up to size 7 ASAP in order to benefit from the Commercial Commerce bonus.

The first step, as OPD mentions, is to designate 3 cities as Worker-pumps. Keep these under size 6, make sure they get a Granary, and set things up so that they produce a Worker every 2 turns (without many Food bonuses I doubt we can get a 1-turn pump going). Do not worry about upkeep and lowered research for now...this is investment time.


Dominae

	02-03-2004 04:36									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Yet another major issue not yet addressed Negotiating with all teams for a plan to eliminate war weariness exploiting. We received a recommendation from GWT ... have we responded yet ?

Personally, I am waiting to get the turn back with peace accepted by GCA so we can negotiate at the UN without being elligible for any accusations of grudges. Rest assured that we have not forgotten about this for a single second.

As per OPD's and Dominae's suggestion for setting up some worker pumps... I totally agree. We are woefully underpopulated and need to bring many cities up to size. This also requires Aqueducts however, which was why I prioritized them in the AltSp2 draft (which few people have commented on btw ).

-MZ

	02-03-2004 04:41									#6
	Tired of ads?

I too think that our primary aim in what we build in our cities ought to be Markets and Aquaducts (where necessary), using a couple sites as Worker pumps for our cities. We can use Zenophobia in the south, Elucidium in the center and Lux in the north. Between those 3 cities we should be able to get 2-turn Worker pumps up and running fairly easily. Building Granaries for growth in our larger cities would not be the best way to accomplish the rapid pop growth we will need in the future.

In other words, the do-all end-all right now is Workers!

	02-03-2004 05:07									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

First off - Thank you E_T for your continued hard work!

Please note I am not accusing posters in this thread of dogpiling on E_T or making accusations. I just can smell a trend brewing and want to nip it in the bud.

I have seen this happen a few times in these games: A dedicated team member does a good job with something for awhile. Whether the initial planning was colloborative or not, subsequent efforts are effectively presumed to be the sole responsibility of the same person, and the amount of team input diminishes over time, increasing the workload for the individual. Eventually either the person quits or is accused of hogging responsibility and making decisions without team consensus.

This can happen in FAM, MoW and MoI roles.

I know from personal experience that E_T is very open to collaborative efforts, debating methods, etc. I also know that, lacking input, he will take the world on his shoulders.

Let's please make sure this discussion stays as constructive as it has started - good first post OPD.

As I stated in Dom's thread - workers to the exclusion of anything else would be ill advised, IMO.

	02-03-2004 07:43									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A fairly short chat between E_T and myself on this topic.

Read it if you're interested in E_T's policy regarding Worker pumps and our current Granary builds.

quote: [19:16] *Trip* heya E_T [19:17] *Trip* when you have time later, perhaps you can look into OPD/Dom's ideas about ditching the Granaries in Dominus, Chiquita and AP for, perhaps, Markets, and set up some Worker pumps instead to take over the pop increases [19:17] *Trip* after all, having 3 or 4 Worker pumps to boost the pop in those cities WOULD be more efficient than having them fill a 40/20 food box [19:18] *Trip* done correctly, it IS a very effective tactic [19:18] *E_T* well, the ideas for the granaries was for a couple of good reasons [19:19] *E_T* 1) to help with the REX [19:19] *E_T* 2) to help those cities that can get to higher pops without Aquaducts to do so [19:20] *E_T* they will be getting Markets right after the REX/palace move [19:20] *E_T* and Elucidium will be a worker pump [19:20] *Trip* yes, but the REX is almost done... the BB Granary will pay off with at least 2 Settlers, but the Dominus and Chiquita ones will probably only get 1 [19:21] *E_T* but part of that depends on it's corruption after all is done [19:21] *Trip* and you said yourself the Apolyton Prime (AP) Granary was ONLY for growth [19:21] *Trip* and certainly using a pump to grow AP would be more efficient [19:21] *E_T* they will only get one, but will also allow those cities to recover from the settlers faster [19:21] *Trip* we could probably set up EN, Lux and Zenophobia as 2-turn Worker pumps fairly easily [19:22] *E_T* and Lux's days are numbered, just not sure exactly when, but likely within the next 40 turns after the Palacemove [19:22] *Trip* right, but in the meantime it could be a very good Worker pump, especially once Poly is gone and there are more tiles to work [19:23] *E_T* it's going to be doing that [19:24] *E_T* but the thing about Chiquita and Dominus, is that they have very good production potential, with the hills and all, but need the pop to effectively use them [19:25] *E_T* Plus, they are both river cities and we ARE commercial, with the trade bonus with cities over size 6 [19:25] *Trip* E_T: so why couldn't we use Big Bend and Lux to pump them up instead of them having to use their own Granaries? Yes, it would limit BB, but they would grow a lot faster [19:25] *E_T* and they are part of the new trade core, once the palace had been moved [19:26] *E_T* thing about worker pumps to help cities growths, is that you use them for cities that do grow slowly, even with a granary [19:26] *E_T* so, in those cases, you don't build a granary for the slower growers and use the workers instead [19:27] *Trip* E_T: well, I will let you respond to the thread in question, and then I will start a poll to see what people think [19:28] *E_T* but then, on the cases of Dom and Chiq, they are just too good to waste on not having a granary [19:28] *Trip* what about AP? [19:28] *Trip* would it not benefit more from a Market first? It will already be size ~9 [19:28] *Trip* and with all those hills the potential for growth AND shields is limited [19:29] *E_T* AP, I was looking at that and I'm going to change it from Granary to Market [19:29] *Trip* okay, cool [19:30] *E_T* If the Palace move had come later, then the granary would have helped with the growth [19:30] *Trip* yeah [19:30] *Trip* what about cities like Arcadia? [19:30] *Trip* on a river, yes, but if we irrigate the land around the city for growth, its SPT potential is quite limited [19:30] *Arnelos* Arcadia needs a harbor [19:30] *Arnelos* then it can focus on SPT on-land [19:30] *E_T* not too sure about Arcadia, its also a river city, but then it's got a lot of water to use, too [19:32] *Trip* yeah, but not a lot of food [19:32] *Trip* it'll need those land tiles for shields [19:32] *E_T* if anything, those granary (and other southern city) builds were a placeholder/sheildstorage for later evaluation after the palacemove [19:32] *Trip* well, we have quite a few cities down there doing Workers also [19:33] *E_T* some might change, but then, they are 10 turn builds... not too efficient [19:34] *E_T* but then, they will be needed to help with the worker rechanrge after adding a few to AP

	02-03-2004 11:59									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with Dom, who agreed with OPD about the needed worker pumps and losing the graneries. I also think ET has done a great job with little input from the team. I think we all let him down on that.

Dom: Would you consider being the MoI once ET wants to take a break?

	02-03-2004 12:05									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We need to get astronomy to find out if there are any more land in the black area, there may be some nice places to put CGN on.

	02-03-2004 12:28									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by jagjef We need to get astronomy to find out if there are any more land in the black area, there may be some nice places to put CGN on.

I wouldn't laugh... that might end up being necessary...

	02-03-2004 12:48									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm, I was thinking about having our northern most city as a refuge for CGN, if it ever comes to that. But maybe I'll see about another settler for sometime close to when we get Astro, so that we can put him on a galley and send him north.

As for other MoI Issues, I'm still recovering from my resent illness and just to let everyone know, my Domestic Partner is still somewhat sick. So, besides work, I'll have to do some of our domestic chores while I'm on my 2 days off.

I'm one for trying to keep everyone in the know about what is going to be happening. For one, the Palace move will be happening on turn 171-550AD, just 10 turns away from this next turn to be played (turn 162).

I'll try to post somemore soon.

E_T